BPR Mailing List Digest: 10/11-17/98

Philologos
BPR Mailing List Digest
October 11-17, 1998

Digest Home | 1998

To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Catholic church to probe doomsday cult headed by would-be
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:21:10 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Catholic church to probe doomsday cult headed by
would-be Pope

SYDNEY, Oct 9 (AFP) - The Roman Catholic church is to investigate an
Australian cult that says heaven has sent a message warning that
civilisation will end next year, officials said Friday.

Members of the cult known as the Order of St Charbel believe their
leader William Kamm, who is known as "Little Pebble", will be
nominated by Pope John Paul II as his successor.

Kamm forecast a comet would hit the earth earlier this year, but when
it didn't members accepted the explanation that he had got the year
wrong, a spokesman said.

It now expects civilisation to be destroyed by the end of next year,
and that 144,000 people would be left to begin "the new era."

The number of members is unknown, but the cult has bases in four
states.

Catholic spokesman Father Brian Lucas said the church would take the
rare step of setting up a commission of experts in theology and canon
law to investigate the cult.

It was the subject of a police investigation into its finances and
alleged criminal law breaches last year.

Lucas said that for years Wollongong bishops had indicated the church
did not consider the activities of the cult were consistent with
Catholic practice.

But Kamm had been trying to petition the bishops to establish that
what he said was authentic, Lucas said.

"Mr Kamm is pretty persistent so to bring the matter to a head and to
be in a position to make a definitive statement, the church is
establishing this commission," Lucas said.

A statement released by the Diocese of Wollongong said the commission
would give clear guidance to people everywhere about Kamm's claims.

"The investigation will be conducted by the procedures that have been
established by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome
and are used throughout the world in these situations."

Cult spokesman Richard Williams told ABC radio Friday about visits to
their headquarters in the New South Wales coastal town of Nowra by St
Joseph and the Virgin Mary.

He said the Virgin Mary had warned them a few weeks ago that the city
of Wollongong, south of Sydney, would be inundated with water and
cited recent flooding in Wollongong as evidence that the prophesy had
come true.

Asked how he knew that Kamm would become Pope, Williams replied:
"Because heaven has said that he's going to be."

They received notification of this "in the messages", he said, adding:
"We get messages, public messages, at least twice a month."

Williams said he and his fellow cult members were not depressed, nor
focused on the end of the earth. "We are focused on getting to heaven
in a state of grace," he said.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Army picks sites for special National Guard teams
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:54:55 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

ARMY PICKS SITES FOR SPECIAL NATIONAL GUARD TEAMS

The Army has selected the 10 communities that will serve as home bases
for specially trained and equipped National Guard Rapid Assessment and
Initial Response teams.

Last Friday, the Army said the teams will respond to incidents
involving the use of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. The
teams will be based in: Los Alamitos, California -- Aurora, Colorado
-- Marietta, Georgia -- Peoria, Illinois -- Natick, Massachusetts --
Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri -- Scotia, New York -- Fort Indiantown
Gap, Pennsylvania -- Austin, Texas and Tacoma, Washington.

UPI Science Briefs, Oct. 5, 1998

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Missing Home Pigeons
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:52:39 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi guys...

In response to the missing pigeons story, I submit the following
daily reports:

--- begin report ---

Unexpected M-Class Event Occurs 10.07.98 1330 UTC

At approximately 1200 UTC [0800 EDT] this morning, and
unexpected M1 class flare event occurred. The event was
preceded by two C-Class events earlier in the morning [overnight.]

As of yesterday afternoon's SEC update and solar forecast, there
was considered only a small chance of a C-Class event and pretty
much no chance of an M-Class event occurring anytime in the
next several days making this flare event very unexpected.

The homing pigeon news story I sent out was quite interesting
because there was indeed a magnetic field disturbance occurring
yesterday as described in the update I sent out yesterday.

--- end report ---

--- 10.06.98 report ---

The geomagnetic field was quiet today, with the exception of a
discontinuity that was noted about midday followed by a small
sudden impulse and slight changes in the magnetic field. The
forecast is for continued quiet conditions for the next 48-72 hours.

--- end report ---

I'm not sure, but perhaps the pigeons have been found? Either
way, the magnetic disturbance appears to have coincided with
the pigeon race. Most unfortunate for the little fellers it seems.

As far as the "big one" hitting soon, there is an increase chance
of earthquake activity (more of 'em and more intense) the first few
days following a magnetic disturbance of this nature. Scientists
won't stake their reputation on that, but other observers have
noticed this trend. So if we have missing homing pigeons right
before a big quake hits, the two events being related would not
be that big of a stretch. IMO.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: fr. Ed - Re: fr. Ed The Seven Trumpets Relate To TheFirst Four Seals
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 15:38:36 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi,

I have looked at the seals and trumpets as running simultaneously, but I
don't believe this is so because of Leviticus 26. Speaking of the first
four seals, I believe the judgments of the fourth seal occur and then out
of those flow the trumpets because Israel won't repent. Simultaneous to
that is the "1/3 cleansing" scenario where God begins to whittle down
disobedient Israel to have an obedient remnant left in the end. I am still
open to considering the simultaneous trumpets and the first four seals, but
I don't think right now that could be true.

I think the first four trumpets and seals have a different flavor than the
last three of each and will at the end of the week begin to blend together
in a culminating scenario.

The seventh seal, trumpet and bowl most likely come together in the end,
but I am not far into looking at that yes. My main concern right now is to
take a good look at the four seals and trumpets. I will get there in time
though. Just a very rough idea of the seals bowls and trumpets would look
something like this:

SEAL1 SEAL2 SEAL3 SEAL4 SEAL5 TRUMP1 2 3 4 5 SEAL6

Around the time of seal 6, the 6th trumpet would enter into the picture and
the the sixth and seventh seal and seventh trumpet. In the midst of this
somewhere would come the 7 bowls of wrath, probably out of the 6th trumpet
because the sixth bvowl is the call to armageddon. Don't put too much stock
in this scenario of the end, though, because I haven't examined it that
closely this time around.

One thing I will getting into is the two witnesses starting their testimony
at midweek along with the four winds releasing the trumpets. These MAY tie
into the trumpet blowing. The earth can't be harmed until Israel is sealed,
and right after that the angels start blowing the trumpets to harm the
water and trees, etc. That is most likely at midpoint. Also the two
witnesses have power to do whatever they deem necessary, and it may very be
that the trumpets are them in action, but this really needs some indepth
searching to see if it could be so. The reason I say that is that there are
angels apparently assigned to the seven churches and it is hard to define
angel as it seems to be the one in charge of each church as a man, yet
these messages are addressed to the angels of each church. It could be that
the angels blowing the trumpets are what the two witnesses are dong while
calling Israel to repent, which is what the trumpets are about. Don't think
to hard on this one though, because it needs a loooooooooooooot of
research. In other words, the trumpets starting to blow at midpoint could
end up having a bearing on the sealing of the remnant, the two witnesses
and the trumpets blowing.

The way I am looking at all of this may "seem" unorthodx, but I don't think
the word of God says it is unorthodox at all. I think for too long we have
read books and thrown back other men's scenarios and added our own
interpretations, interpretations often based on assumptions and
suppositions, yet nothing ever seems to get settled. The time is short and
we need to get settled in what God's word says. I don't say all of that in
a mean way, or that I am right in everything (I'm not), but the
overwhelming variations on interpretation I've found on the web are so
confusing and different that we are breeding confusion among ourselves and
it is harming the body of Christ. I am really concerned about that.

Well, now that I've spouted off <G>, getting back to work. I am doing three
addendums to what I shared earlier on the seals and trumpets and will be
sending them out soon.

At 12:52 PM 10/11/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
>
>Hi there...
>
>
>> I believe this is a workable scenario. I have some other thoughts I may
add
>> at a later time, but for now would be interested in any input, pro or con.
>>
>
>Extremely interesting piece, Ed. Question though... in this scenario,
>do the seals and trumpets run simultaneously? Does seal one open
>up at the beginning of the week and seal seven close it, in other
>words?
>
>It's interesting Ed ... but we seem to be studying along the same
>lines. <g> Your article mentioned the "seven times more plagues"
>in Leviticus, and also pointed out the similarities with the Fourth
>Seal. A few days ago I was noting the same "four judgements"
>mentioned in Ezekiel 14:12-ff with those of the fourth seal.
>
>
>
>
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: fr. Ed - Re: fr. Ed The Seven Trumpets Relate To TheFirst Four Seals
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:04:34 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi guys....

> From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
>
>
> SEAL1 SEAL2 SEAL3 SEAL4 SEAL5 TRUMP1 2 3 4 5 SEAL6

I dunno Ed. I tend to believe that the seals all must be opened
before the trumpets and bowls begin. I should probably state that I
don't see the seals as being judgments from God either. His wrath,
IMO, doesn't start until the seventh seal has been opened. Without
getting into too much of that however, I believe that since John saw
and therefore counted seven seals, that the seals must be on the
outside of the book. In other words, all seven seals must be broken
before the book can be opened. Revelation portrays this beautifully
I feel, as we do see or read about the trumpets coming out of seal
seven.

> suppositions, yet nothing ever seems to get settled. The time is short and
> we need to get settled in what God's word says. I don't say all of that in
> a mean way, or that I am right in everything (I'm not), but the
> overwhelming variations on interpretation I've found on the web are so
> confusing and different that we are breeding confusion among ourselves and
> it is harming the body of Christ. I am really concerned about that.

I wake up each day, anxious to see what the headlines are. I am
expecting the Lord's return very soon! Events around us seem to
be moving very rapidly now towards some intended goal. It's hard
to keep up with all, and especially, as you've pointed out, there are
so many different versions and scenarios being presented by
everyone. If one is not careful, they can get caught up in
falsehood. Yes, we humans tend to confuse things, and as a result
our confusion probably does cause *some* harm to the body of
Christ. I would hate to contribute to any kind of confusion. I think
and pray about that every day. OTOH, I also believe that some
have learned and become strengthened in the Word of God. I
know that I personally have learned and been directed towards
certain passages in Scriptures from brothers and sisters I've met,
especially on the internet. I suppose we just have to let the Holy
Spirit do His thing. <g> "Father, show me what I need to keep and
show me what I need to throw away."

From: Biff & Suzanne Clement <bc@ncinter.net>

Dear everyone...

Concerning the timing of the seals and the trumpets (etc.) it is vital that we
only
understand what God's Word has to say concerning these things, rather than
trying to figure it out for ourselves by inputing them through some bias
thinking
and wishing of our own making...

The following seems to be very clear to me...

#1. THE 6th TRUMP IS **BEFORE** THE 6th SEAL!

God says: : "Men go into the rocks and caves in fear...because Thy WRATH is
come!"
Now, compare the 6th seal with Isaiah...

Isa.2:10, 19, 21 - "men go into rocks and caves" (WHY?) "Because the Lord
Arises (i.e. the time of His wrath is come)...and rocks the earth"....
Isa.2:12 - In the day of the Lord: "EVERYONE will be brought low...the LORD
ALONE will be exalted"...
Isa.2:18 - in that day "HE WILL UTTERLY ABOLISH THE IDOLS"!
Isa.2:20 - in that day "A MAN WILL CAST AWAY HIS IDOLS TO THE MOLES AND THE
BATS."

now compare Isa 2:18 & 20 with the end of the 6th Trump - Rev.9:21 says: "and
the remainder...DID NOT REPENT OF THEIR IDOLS."
I know that the 6th seal ushers in the Day of the Lord and His wrath...a day
when He will utterly abolish all of the idols, and they will cast them away
(i.e. repent of them!).

#2. The 7th TRUMP **PARALLELS** THE 6th SEAL!

7th Trump: "Thy wrath is come"
6th Seal: "the great day of His wrath is come"

#3. The 6th TRUMP **PARALLELS** THE 5th BOWL!

6th Trump: "and they did not repent of...works of their hands...murders,
fornications,thefts..."
5th Bowl: "they did not repent of their deeds"

These are a few of the things I found when one compares Scripture with
Scripture.

In Him,
Biff

BPR wrote:

> From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
>
> Hi guys....
>
> > From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
> >
> >
> > SEAL1 SEAL2 SEAL3 SEAL4 SEAL5 TRUMP1 2 3 4 5 SEAL6
>
> I dunno Ed. I tend to believe that the seals all must be opened
> before the trumpets and bowls begin. I should probably state that I
> don't see the seals as being judgments from God either. His wrath,
> IMO, doesn't start until the seventh seal has been opened. Without
> getting into too much of that however, I believe that since John saw
> and therefore counted seven seals, that the seals must be on the
> outside of the book. In other words, all seven seals must be broken
> before the book can be opened. Revelation portrays this beautifully
> I feel, as we do see or read about the trumpets coming out of seal
> seven.
>
> > suppositions, yet nothing ever seems to get settled. The time is short and
> > we need to get settled in what God's word says. I don't say all of that in
> > a mean way, or that I am right in everything (I'm not), but the
> > overwhelming variations on interpretation I've found on the web are so
> > confusing and different that we are breeding confusion among ourselves and
> > it is harming the body of Christ. I am really concerned about that.
>
> I wake up each day, anxious to see what the headlines are. I am
> expecting the Lord's return very soon! Events around us seem to
> be moving very rapidly now towards some intended goal. It's hard
> to keep up with all, and especially, as you've pointed out, there are
> so many different versions and scenarios being presented by
> everyone. If one is not careful, they can get caught up in
> falsehood. Yes, we humans tend to confuse things, and as a result
> our confusion probably does cause *some* harm to the body of
> Christ. I would hate to contribute to any kind of confusion. I think
> and pray about that every day. OTOH, I also believe that some
> have learned and become strengthened in the Word of God. I
> know that I personally have learned and been directed towards
> certain passages in Scriptures from brothers and sisters I've met,
> especially on the internet. I suppose we just have to let the Holy
> Spirit do His thing. <g> "Father, show me what I need to keep and
> show me what I need to throw away."

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi there Biff

> Concerning the timing of the seals and the trumpets (etc.) it is
> vital that we only understand what God's Word has to say
> concerning these things, rather than trying to figure it out for
> ourselves by inputing them through some bias thinking and wishing
> of our own making...

I agree. However, as hard as we try sometimes, our school of
thought (e.g. pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, whatever) sometimes gets in
the way. We like to think we are being openminded. <g>

> The following seems to be very clear to me...
>
> #1. THE 6th TRUMP IS **BEFORE** THE 6th SEAL!

[..snip..]

> #2. The 7th TRUMP **PARALLELS** THE 6th SEAL!

[..snip..]

> #3. The 6th TRUMP **PARALLELS** THE 5th BOWL!

Now see.. to me this is not very clear at all. It is most confusing.
Perhaps I'm not seeing the forest for the trees.

> now compare Isa 2:18 & 20 with the end of the 6th Trump - Rev.9:21 says: "and
> the remainder...DID NOT REPENT OF THEIR IDOLS."
> I know that the 6th seal ushers in the Day of the Lord and His wrath...a day
> when He will utterly abolish all of the idols, and they will cast them away
> (i.e. repent of them!).

I agree that the Day of the Lord follows the sixth seal. But in your
placing the trumpets and bowls - which are clearly judgments of
God - before the sixth seal, are you not having God's Wrath occur
*before* His Day of Wrath arrives? Everything that happens before
the sixth seal is ...um.... pre-Day of Wrath?

Another way of looking at: the world doesn't realize that God's
Judgments have been occuring until the sixth seal, when they
suddenly become afraid? Everything is almost over before they
realize that God's Wrath is about to begin?

I don't mean to be flippant Biff, but I take a slightly different, perhaps
more simple, more straight-forward approach to the Word of God.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that scripture must be compared to
scripture. We know that scripture cannot contradict itself, but in
having the trumpets occur before the seals are completely opened
and in placing bowls before the trumpets are completed, I find
contradictions.

I know that I may have a simple mind and thus a simple way of
looking at things <g>, but the following verse --

(Rev 8:1-2) "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there
was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. {2} And I
saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were
given seven trumpets."

tells me that the trumpets were not handed out until *after* the
seventh seal was opened. An angel ain't gonna be blowing that
trumpet judgment until it's been handed over to him.

Knowing that scripture so clearly says that to me, and knowing what
a scroll looks like and imagining it rolled up and sealed as John
described, I don't see me concluding that since the seven seals are
on the outside of the scroll and therefore all seven need to be
opened before the trumpets and bowls begin is inputing the
scriptures with biased and/or wishful thinking of my own making.

That's my opinion. Your opinion differs with mine. We can agree to
disagree on this. <g>

Thanks for your input Biff...

From: Biff & Suzanne Clement <bc@ncinter.net>

Hi,

See, there ya go again. We all have that tendency to believe that just
because
things are written one after the other they must be in that order.
Example...you use>>(Rev 8:1-2) "And when he had opened the seventh
seal, there
was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. {2} And I
saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were
given seven trumpets."<<
and by this you are led to believe...>>tells me that the trumpets were
not handed
out until *after* the seventh seal was opened.

Even though this may be true I don't SEE it as you do. And this is why:
"Because
you chose to take it all as an ongoining and continuos, uninterupted
prophetic
event, and I don't." For those who do see it like you, please explain
to me how
Rev. 12, Rev. 14, etc. fit into the one after the other scenario?
They don't!
Can we admit that these "Visions" do not fit the Chapter 1 - 22
time/event sequence
we hold?
There are obvious "Connections" in some of John's visions. The problem
is our
taking and making "Connections" (from one vision to the next) one after
the other
without examination, simply because that's what everyone else does! I
don't buy
it! I won't buy it! I've set aside my biases in order to see and
understand what
the Lord is saying and is not saying by comparing scriptures, including
many very
clear apocalyptic old testament ones.

What I do buy must be clear!
To me this is clear: It is written at the end of the 6th Trumpet that
the men who
remained STILL DID NOT REPENT OF THEIR IDOLS.
I ask you: "Does anyone truly believe that when the Lord's face is seen
as He sits
on His throne, and the time of His wrath is come at the end of the 6th
seal, that
men will still cling to their idols???" I don't buy it! Absolutely
not, just as
Isaiah foretold.

By the way - The day of the Lord doesn't come AFTER the 6th seal (as you
believe),
but DURING the 6th seal! (cf Isa., Joel, Zech.)...a day of darkness and
not light,
etc.
The 6th seal MARKS the Day of the Lord! From beginning to end it
carries with it a
great many things - from an earthquake to signs in the sun, moon, stars,
to His
appearing (as He confirms in Matt.24..."Immediately after the trib. of
those
days...else no flesh would survive, etc").

What many fail to realize at times(myself included) is that "MAN" was
the one who
added the chapters and verses to God's Word.
Rev.8:1 deals with the opening of the 7th seal.
Rev. 8:2 deals with a whole new vision (AND I SAW). Who says Rev.8:2 is
what must
follow Rev.8:1? I see nothing of the kind! What I do see is another
vision or
revelation given to John concerning the 7 trumpets.
However, If this is what you're saying then how can you explain the many
"Discrepencies" (if you're planning on each verse leading to the next
through the
whole book of revelation without any backtracking) I mentioned earlier.

I'm sorry but this is the kind of thinking that led pre-tribbers to
believe that
(after these things I saw) John was caught up after the church age and
he
represented the church, thus the pre-trib. rapture.
All John is doing is describing a series of apocalyptic visions he had
from the Lord
concerning the end times.

Concerning God's wrath I have no fear of that! One way or the other
(rapture or
protected through it like Noah and/or the Jews in Egypt) we will not be
recipients
of it.
As far as the church is concerned we will be in it all or most all of
the way
through the great tribulation...until He cuts those days short!
Now whether or not the trumpets and/or bowls are in action during this
time or after
it depends on each persons interpretation of Scripture.
However, to say the 7 trumps come out of the 7 seals, and the 7 bowls
come out of
the 7 trumps are merely following Scripture chronologically...yet John's
visions are
not all chronological.

Anyway, the bottom line remains:
"IF after the 6th trumpet men still did not repent of their idols, then
it becomes
obvious that the 6th seal wasn't opened as yet...for here we see men in
derision out
of fear of the Lord and His wrath KNOWING the end is come. THEN, as
Isaiah says,
"What good will their idols do them then (when the Lord arises to shake
the earth
mightily) - they'll cast them away to the moles and bats in that day".
I assure you
- they will repent of their idols in the day of the Lord's wrath and
vengeance.

Something to *seriously* think about....<g>

Have a nice day,

Biff

BPR wrote:

> From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
>
> Hi there Biff
>
> > Concerning the timing of the seals and the trumpets (etc.) it is
> > vital that we only understand what God's Word has to say
> > concerning these things, rather than trying to figure it out for
> > ourselves by inputing them through some bias thinking and wishing
> > of our own making...
>
> I agree. However, as hard as we try sometimes, our school of
> thought (e.g. pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, whatever) sometimes gets in
> the way. We like to think we are being openminded. <g>
>
> > The following seems to be very clear to me...
> >
> > #1. THE 6th TRUMP IS **BEFORE** THE 6th SEAL!
>
> [..snip..]
>
> > #2. The 7th TRUMP **PARALLELS** THE 6th SEAL!
>
> [..snip..]
>
> > #3. The 6th TRUMP **PARALLELS** THE 5th BOWL!
>
> Now see.. to me this is not very clear at all. It is most confusing.
> Perhaps I'm not seeing the forest for the trees.
>
> > now compare Isa 2:18 & 20 with the end of the 6th Trump - Rev.9:21 says: "and
> > the remainder...DID NOT REPENT OF THEIR IDOLS."
> > I know that the 6th seal ushers in the Day of the Lord and His wrath...a day
> > when He will utterly abolish all of the idols, and they will cast them away
> > (i.e. repent of them!).
>
> I agree that the Day of the Lord follows the sixth seal. But in your
> placing the trumpets and bowls - which are clearly judgments of
> God - before the sixth seal, are you not having God's Wrath occur
> *before* His Day of Wrath arrives? Everything that happens before
> the sixth seal is ...um.... pre-Day of Wrath?
>
> Another way of looking at: the world doesn't realize that God's
> Judgments have been occuring until the sixth seal, when they
> suddenly become afraid? Everything is almost over before they
> realize that God's Wrath is about to begin?
>
> I don't mean to be flippant Biff, but I take a slightly different, perhaps
> more simple, more straight-forward approach to the Word of God.
> Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that scripture must be compared to
> scripture. We know that scripture cannot contradict itself, but in
> having the trumpets occur before the seals are completely opened
> and in placing bowls before the trumpets are completed, I find
> contradictions.
>
> I know that I may have a simple mind and thus a simple way of
> looking at things <g>, but the following verse --
>
> (Rev 8:1-2) "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there
> was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. {2} And I
> saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were
> given seven trumpets."
>
> tells me that the trumpets were not handed out until *after* the
> seventh seal was opened. An angel ain't gonna be blowing that
> trumpet judgment until it's been handed over to him.
>
> Knowing that scripture so clearly says that to me, and knowing what
> a scroll looks like and imagining it rolled up and sealed as John
> described, I don't see me concluding that since the seven seals are
> on the outside of the scroll and therefore all seven need to be
> opened before the trumpets and bowls begin is inputing the
> scriptures with biased and/or wishful thinking of my own making.
>
> That's my opinion. Your opinion differs with mine. We can agree to
> disagree on this. <g>
>
> Thanks for your input Biff...

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Biff wrote:

> Even though this may be true I don't SEE it as you do. And this is
> why

And that's quite alright. You've obviously studied the Word of God
and are sure of what you believe. Yep, me too. And now low and
behold we disagree on a few things. Wonders never cease. <g>

I'm not trying to sell you anything nor am I trying to change your
mind Biff. Perhaps if I was, I would be a little more energetic in
outlining my understanding of Revelation to you. Right now
however, I don't see the point.

Look me up when we get to heaven and we'll compare notes.
Who knows... perhaps I'll slap ya on the back and say "Well what
d'ya know Biff.. you were right. Wonders never cease!" <g/d/r>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: fr. Ed - Addendum to #1: The Seven Trumpets Relate To TheFirst Four Seals
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 17:03:07 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/PForum/Trumps2.htm

Miscellaneous Notes
Ed Tarkowski

Addendum to #1: The Seven Trumpets Relate To The First Four Seals

<http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/PForum/Trumps3.htm>See ADDENDUM #2 Leviticus
26: (v. 14-39) Threatenings against disobedience.
<http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/PForum/Trumps4.htm>See ADDENDUM #3 Leviticus
26 (v. 40-46) God promises to remember those that repent.

ADDENDUM #1 Leviticus 26:(v. 1-13) Promises upon keeping the precepts.

Chapter 26 of Leviticus, needs some expanding to bring out more clearly
that because the majority of end-time Israel will most likely follow the
antichrist and not repent under the judgments of the fourth seal. God,
therefore, sends seven more punishments in the seven trumpets. Here is what
He had commanded Israel to begin with:

(Lev 26 KJV) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you
up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your
land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
{2} Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
{3} If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

God told Israel these things through Moses at Sinai. They, of course, will
break all of these in the time of antichrist:

* Do not set an idol up in the His land (v. 1)
* Keep His Sabbaths and reverance His sanctuary (v. 2)
* Walk in and obey His statutes (v. 3)

He said if they did these things, He would promise to do certain things.
Because they do break the above during Daniel's 70th week, they miss out on
all that God promised. Instead, they experience the first four seals, with
our emphasis being on the fourth seal and God's four standard judgments
that He always brought against Israel in the Old Testament for breaking the
three commands we stated. This fourth seal especially is God calling them
to repent and to do what He had originally said. But since they won't obey
these in the 70th week, they experience the opposite of the promises of God
until God brings forth the remnant (one of the main puposes of these fourth
seal judgments) who do fear Him and repent and turn to Him or never yield
to the antichrist to begin with. These promises will be fulfilled to that
remnant at the end of the 70th week when Israel is brought into the visible
kingdom of God:

Leviticus 26:4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall
yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

God will fulfill this promise and the following promises during the High
Holidays after the end of Daniel's 70th week, cleansing Israel and the land
from the severe judgments He sends to them during the 70th week:

Leviticus 25:5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the
vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to
the full, and dwell in your land safely.
{6} And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none
shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither
shall the sword go through your land.
{7} And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the
sword.
{8} And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put
ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

Not only will He cleanse the land of all the plagues He sends during the
70th week, He will establish His covenant with them and set His dwelling
among them, and they will be a people taken to be His very own (the promise
inherent in the fourth Passover cup). All that caused the Lord to abhor
them because of the idols in His land and disregard for His sanctuary will
be reversed and He will not abhor them as He did because He will have
cleansed the land and brought out the remnant who did not fall for the
antics of antichrist:

Leviticus 26:9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and
multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
{10} And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
{11} And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
{12} And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my
people.
{13} I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of
Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of
your yoke, and made you go upright.

Leviticus paints a very similar picture to what happens during and after
the 70th week of Daniel. This is the final exodus for the faithful ones in
Israel. Just as God brought them out of Egypt by inflicting plague after
plague, so He will do again at the end of the 70th week.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Intelligence: Social Work with B-52s?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 17:58:25 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

[Mod Note: I'm sorry these intelligence reports are so long, but I
find them particularly informative and considering that I know so
very little about geopolitics, I need all the help I can get. <g>]

Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
October 12, 1998

U.S. Attempts "Social Work with B-52s" in the Former Yugoslavia

With massive publicity, six B-52 bombers each able to carry 20 air
launched cruise missiles, left Barksdale Air Force Base in
Louisiana for the United Kingdom, in preparation for possible air
strikes against Serbia. Meanwhile, talks between U.S.
representative Richard Holbrooke and Serbian officials ended
with the Serbs hailing a breakthrough over the Kosovo question
and Holbrooke denying that any breakthrough took place. If we
are to believe U.S. government officials, it would appear that the
five- year long U.S. involvement in the former Yugoslavia is about
to escalate, with the United States launching a massive air
campaign against Serbia. This is not "wagging the dog." This
dog has been wagged since long before Monica Lewinsky took a
job as First Mistress.

The current crisis is clear enough. Kosovo is an ethnically
Albanian region of Serbia. It wants to secede and join Albania or
have more autonomy within Serbia, depending on who you talk to
and on what day the discussion is held. The Serbs are solving
the problem by slaughtering Albanians. The United States wants
them to stop doing that, and says that it will bomb Serbia if they
don't. Two questions come to mind. First, why don't the Serbs
just let them go? Second, why does the United States care one
way or another?

Let's forget this latest crisis and begin by trying to understand why
the region behaves the way it does. Actually, in order to
understand the Yugoslavs we really need to understand the
eastern Mediterranean as a whole. Look at a map of the Eastern
Hemisphere. It consists of three continents. Africa, Asia and
Europe all converge on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean.
At the center of this intercontinental pivot is the Levant, the true
eastern coast of the Mediterranean, including Israel, Lebanon and
western Syria. Any continental empire wanting to be secure from
powers in the other two continents must hold the Levantine coast.
But that isn't enough. An Asian power, say Turkey or Persia, can
approach Europe through this northern route, through Turkey
then Greece and possibly north into the Balkans. Of course, to
secure this route, an Asia power needs to cover its flank by
seizing the Levant. On the other side, European powers like
Rome must move through the Balkans and Greece and take the
Levant, if they hope control the Mediterranean and block Asian
offensives into Europe.

Think about what it is like living in this region. England has been
invaded twice in two thousand years. Russia, twice in two
centuries. The United States was invaded once since its
founding. The Mediterranean arc constantly has armies passing
through. In this century alone, Yugoslavia has had Turkish,
British, German, Italian and now American troops on its soil
(leaving out minor passing incursions of no note). Each invader
has come for its own reasons, but all had one thing in common.
None really wanted to be there. They were there because they
were building, holding, or destroying empires. The strategic
character of the region forced them to seize it. Except for the
territory's strategic importance, no one cared in the least what
happened to it.

No one wanted to devote a lot of resources to holding it either.
They stationed the minimum number of troops possible. The
general strategy for holding the region, ever since Roman times,
has been for an invader to ally itself with a local clan, tribe or
nationality, arm them, train them, and use them to hold the region.
Frequently, the local group adopted some of the culture of their
allies. If you look around the Balkans, you will see Roman
Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Moslem national entities, not just
scattered ethnic groups. These are the remnants of empires that
no one outside the region remembers, of wars everyone else has
forgotten, of extraordinary atrocities that can't even be named.
But everyone in the region remembers each conqueror, each war
and each atrocity as if it happened yesterday. For them, history is
a single fabric of interconnected events that still define their
relations with each other. Nations invaded once every two
centuries have trouble thinking this way.

What keeps the bitterness alive is a peculiarity of geopolitics. The
conquerors, in order to maximize their ally's strength and minimize
the resources they needed to devote to holding the region,
increased the sense of communal solidarity, known today as
nationalism, and created political and military instruments
necessary for the politico-military mission. But the fact was that,
economically, each of these small nations was tightly integrated
with the others. In order to benefit from economic integration but
not become subordinated by neighbors, the best solution was to
dominate them. Economic interdependence increased, rather
than decreased, both the sense of vulnerability and the level of
antagonism, and both were exploited by outside powers.
Outsiders cannot grasp the extent to which this claustrophobic
entanglement with mortal enemies makes paranoia a healthy
adjustment to an insane condition. It is not just Yugoslavia. This
process applies throughout the eastern Mediterranean.

The only peace the region has known has been when it has been
occupied by a foreign power, or when one of the local powers
gained ascendance. The most peaceful period in Yugoslavia
probably came after World War II under the Communist regime of
Josef Tito. Three factors made the peace possible. First, Tito
created a political order that appeared to share power among the
republics, while keeping real power in his own hands. Second,
the Army Tito created and dominated (derived from Serbian
partisans) guaranteed the internal order while being strong
enough to keep the Soviets out. Third, the Cold War created a
sort of neutral zone that froze everything in place in Yugoslavia.
Once the Cold War ended, the force field dissolved and
Yugoslavia went to pieces.

Bitter resentment at Serbian domination of Yugoslavia swelled up
and the natural course of events took place. Everyone sought to
get away from the other and no one could. A brutal civil war took
place in which two hundred years of atrocities were remembered
and accounts rendered. Each nation sought an outside patron.
The question on everyone's mind: who would the new imperial
power, the United States, anoint as its surrogate in Yugoslavia?

The United States had a very different vision of the world in mind.
In its view, politics and war had been suspended. Everyone
agreed with everyone else. Even the Russians were now the
friends of the United States. The questions of empire, such as
who would control the Levant or who would control the Balkans,
were meaningless. Since the United States was the only imperial
power, and since the United States chose not to engage in
imperialism, it simply followed that the question of geopolitical
control simply had no meaning. The Balkans would belong to the
people in the region.

This was a fine sentiment, but it had absolutely nothing to do with
the world-view in the region. A terrible war broke out. From the
desperate logic of the region, this was the only possible course.
Moreover, each nation sought to position itself to be anointed by
the United States. The United States simply wanted everyone to
stop being nasty. There was, the Clinton administration believed,
nothing to fight over. When the administration finally grasped not
only that the Balkans would fight, but that the fight would be
horrific, it responded by trying to create a multinational force to
stop the fighting. From the standpoint of the United States, this
was the world community responding to a minor regional crisis.
From the standpoint of the Balkans, this was simply the normal
course of a great imperial power using subordinate troops (British,
German, Russian) to impose its will. The only question: who
would be the anointed in the Balkans.

Now, the United States didn't plan on anointing anyone. It just
wanted to stop the fighting and get on with increasing
international trade. It intervened on the side of Bosnia because
Bosnia had been the victim of horrible, brutal acts. From the Serb
point of view, all they had done is to finally get even for the
horrible brutal things that Bosnians or Croats had done to them.
Moreover, they were merely clearing them out from areas they had
moved into through force of arms decades or centuries before.
The Serbs saw this as mere retribution and rectification. But the
Serbs did understand one thing: for whatever reason, not
altogether clear to them, the Bosnians were the anointed of the
United States.

Regional protocol would have required that, the selection having
been made, the heavy arming of the Bosnians begin, to be
followed by the launching of an attack on Serbia proper in order
to impose an American-sponsored Bosnian or Bosnian-Croatian
dictatorship on the Serbs. The United States had nothing like
that in mind, so it could not simply get the problem over with. Of
course, when the Kosovo province of Serbia became restless, the
United States did demand that the Serbs not take any meaningful
action against them. Since this would have meant secession of
part of Serbia, the Serbs saw this as the next logical step in
America's anti- Serbian strategy. They therefore cracked down
brutally, hoping to liquidate the insurrection before American
action. U.S. threats of air attacks simply convinced the Serbs
that time was running out. They increased the tempo of their
operations. In other words, the United States achieved the exact
opposite of what it wanted. Rather than dissuade Serbia from
brutalizing Kosovo, they made it a matter of urgency.

The United States is now threatening air attacks. This is exactly
what Serbia has been expecting. It knows that the United States
has designs on the Balkans. It knows that the United States
cannot tolerate a free Serbia. It knows that Bosnia is America's
tool to destroy Serbia and that Kosovo is the next step in its
destruction. The Serbs will seem to agree, buy time, lie. They will
not back down. They fought the Germans to a standstill and
bitterly resisted the Turks. The Americans don't frighten them
nearly as much as a region dominated by Bosnia and Croatia
frightens them.

We get the feeling that the Clinton administration simply does not
grasp the geopolitics of the region. More to the point, they seem
to believe that geopolitics was abolished with the Soviet Union.
This makes this crisis doubly troubling. The problem is that the
United States simply cannot define what it wants. More precisely,
what it wants, a cessation of hostility in the region, is precisely
what is not possible. The administration has labeled Serbia the
villain. It certainly is that. But everyone in this region will be a
villain, given half a chance. In the Eastern Mediterranean, one is
either a victimizer or a victim. There are no other options.

The only reason for the United States to be in the region is if it
intends to use the Balkans as a base to resist resurgent Russian
power. Even then it is probably a bad idea, but at the very least it
is a sane explanation for being in the region. At the very least, it is
an explanation that the region can understand. The current
explanation, that the United States has inserted massive forces
into the area for purely humanitarian reasons, is neither sane nor
understandable in the region. The Serbs fought the Waffen SS to
a draw. They can be beaten, but it will take a lot more than a few
hundred cruise missiles to make them fold their cards. They think
that their very existence is at stake.

The United States is acting as an imperial power without having
an imperial appetite. This is the worst of all possible worlds. On
the one side, it throws its weight around globally. On the other
side, since it has no appetite for empire, it is neither predictable
nor persistent. It shows up in various places for no apparent
reason, gets tired and goes home. Without appetite for empire,
the United States is treating imperialism as a hobby. This is
dangerous. Appetites focus the mind and make people thoughtful
and cautious, which at this point in its history, the United States
simply isn't. If the United States wants to build an empire, then
call it that and do it. If it doesn't want to build an empire, then it
should stay home and let others go about their business. But
social work with B-52s is not going to solve the problem or do
much more than confuse everyone as to what the United States
really wants.

___________________________________________________

To receive free daily Global Intelligence Updates
or Computer Security Alerts, sign up on the web at
http://www.stratfor.com/mail/, or send your name,
organization, position, mailing address, phone
number, and e-mail address to alert@stratfor.com

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: fr. Ed - WEBCELERATOR free Acceleration Software!!
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:01:13 -0500

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

[Mod Note: this particular message from Ed had some HTML formatting
in it that my mailer didn't like. I've had to snip that, and just post the URL
that Ed is mentioning. Sorry 'bout that Ed, but my mailer ain't high tech
yet. <g>]

Hi everybody,

I don't usually send out much about free software, but this program is
free and absolutely amazing. The speed it adds to web browsing is
fantastic.

http://www.webcelerator.com/webcelerator/index.html

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: BPR - fr. Ed - ADDENDUM #2: The Seven Trumpets Relate To TheFour Seals
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:00:04 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/PForum/Trumps3.htm

Miscellaneous Notes
Ed Tarkowski

Addendum to #2: The Seven Trumpets Relate To The First Four Seals

See ADDENDUM #1 Leviticus 26: (v. 1-13) Promises upon keeping the precepts.
See ADDENDUM #3 Leviticus 26 (v. 40-46) God promises to remember those that
repent.

ADDENDUM #2 Leviticus 26: (v. 14-39) Threatenings against disobedience

Leviticus 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all
these commandments;
{15} And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my
judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my
covenant:
{16} I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror,
consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause
sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall
eat it.
{17} And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your
enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when
none pursueth you.

Terror, consumption, fever, sorrow, fruitless seed with their enemies eating
their food, being slain, their enemies ruling over them whle they flee.
Certainly these are appropriate for the seals and trumpets of Revelation.
Remember that Daniel was told that this time concerns his people and the
holy city in the latter times. And the first four seals of Revelation, for
instance, speak of one who goes out to conquer, a great sword is mentioned,
the balances tipped against the people of Israel regarding their crops, as
well as death, famine, sword, wild beasts, pestilences, all of these much
like what is described in Leviticus 26.

In the next few verses, we see basically the same likeness:

Leviticus 26: 18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I
will punish you seven times more for your sins.
{19} And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven
as iron, and your earth as brass:
{20} And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield
her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.

The tribulation period is God's call to Israel to repent, and He says if
they don't, then He will make things worse still for them. In Revelation,
that is just what we see, with the first 4 seals escalating into trumpets
which escalate into the outpouring of the bowls and God's final wrath, each
set worse than the previous one. God also says in leviticus that He will
break the pride of their power, just as Daniel said of the holy people:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of
the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and
sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an
half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy
people, all these things shall be finished.

In the next set of verses, the Lord says if they still don't repent, He will
make matters much worse than it has been from His previous chastisements.
Notice the same similarities in the following verses and those of
Revelation, and then I want to make an important point about the Day of
Atonement: more plagues, wild beasts, cattle destroyed, again the sword to
avenge the quarrel of God's covenant, pestilence, being ruled their enemies,
famine which breaks their staff of bread, God's fury, destruction of their
high places which housed their idols (Rev 6:16; Hosea 10:8; Luke 23:30),
Jerusalem and its cities and sanctuary made desolate and Israel scattered.
Verse 22 says God will make them few in number, so again we have the
reduction of numbers to bring out a remnant:

{21} And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will
bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
{22} I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your
children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high
ways shall be desolate.
{23} And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk
contrary unto me;
{24} Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven
times for your sins.
{25} And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my
covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send
the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the
enemy.
{26} And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake
your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by
weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
{27} And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto
me;
{28} Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will
chastise you seven times for your sins.
{29} And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your
daughters shall ye eat.
{30} And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast
your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
{31} And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto
desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
{32} And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell
therein shall be astonished at it.
{33} And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword
after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

This is all complementary to Revelation, the time of Jacob's trouble, with
God sending plagues to bring Israel to repentance and escalating these
plagues when they won't until Israel and its people lie in desolation with a
remnant being gathered to Him.

In the following verses is the reason for it all:

Leviticus 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth
desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest,
and enjoy her sabbaths.

This verse is more fully explained in Leviticus 25:

Lev 25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven
times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be
unto thee forty and nine years. Lev 25:9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet
of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of
atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

In other words, what comes upon Israel in Leviticus 26 IS A RESULT OF
disobedience to what the Lord said in Leviticus 25. Will Israel and the
world accepting the benefits of the efforts of all who are uniting the world
for a global Juiblee bring on the plagues of Leviticus 26, culminating in
the desolation of the land and the world when Christ comes to retore all
things? Return of land to its proper owner, forgiveness of debt, feeding the
world's poor through united global effort are all parts of the Jubilee being
promoted by the United Nations, the Pope, and apostate Christianity. I'm
sure you get the idea here. In other words, in the very first section of the
Forum page there are two charts that depict how things would fit into the
feast and fast days with Passover or the Day of Atonement as the start of
Daniel's 70th week. What I have written on the seals and trumpets would
favor the beginning of Daniel's 70th week as the Day of Atonement, as well
as the chart that I posted. I am still thnking this all out as I read the
Scriptures. It does sound plausible.

The end result of Israel not resting its land in the Jubilee year? God
devastates it so the land will rest as He said it should, and that picture
fits the tribulation period and Daniel's 70th week very well:

Leviticus 26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did
not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
{36} And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into
their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf
shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they
shall fall when none pursueth.
{37} And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when
none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
{38} And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies
shall eat you up.
{39} And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your
enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine
away with them.

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: BPR - fr. Ed - ADDENDUM #3: The Seven Trumpets Relate To TheFour Seals
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:01:03 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/PForum/Trumps4.htm

Miscellaneous Notes
Ed Tarkowski

Addendum to #3: The Seven Trumpets Relate To The First Four Seals

See ADDENDUM #1 Leviticus 26: (v. 1-13) Promises upon keeping the precepts.
See ADDENDUM #2 Leviticus 26 (v. 14-39) Threatenings against disobedience.

ADDENDUM #3: Leviticus 26 (v. 40-46) God promises to remember those that
repent.

We have read much about what happens to Israel if they do not repent, but
the ending verses of Leviticus 26 now tell us that some will repent, a
remnant will be preserved:

Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of
their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and
that also they have walked contrary unto me;
{41} And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them
into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be
humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

God will gather a remnant from where He has scattered them at a time when
He remembers......remembers what?

* His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

* the land - "and I will remember the land"

Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my
covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and
I will remember the land.

God remembers His land, and drives Israel out of it that it may rest
because they refused to give it the rest commanded by God for their benefit:

Leviticus 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her
sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of
the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my
judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

God says again He does this for two reasons:

* they despised His judgments, most likely they either didn't fear Him to
obey or refused to accept their punishment as a call to repentance

* they abhored God's commands

And yet, He is merciful to them to gather a remnant and not destroy them
all because He still wants to be their God:

Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their
enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy
them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their
God.
{45} But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors,
whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen,
that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
{46} These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made
between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Virgin Mary's "last message"
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:06:43 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

The Virgin Mary has been "appearing" to a woman in Virginia for the
past 7 years. Supposedly this year is the last time the woman will
see the Virgin. I guess Satan knows the Bible better than anyone and
has been on overdrive lately to get his counterfeit in place.

"We decided to come because this is her last apparition," pilgrim
Bob Kehler said. "She (the Virgin Mary) is the commander-in-chief,
the one who represents Jesus, and it has been delegated to her to
gather up all her children."

Pilgrims Gather In Georgia For Virgin Mary Message
http://nt.excite.com/news/r/981012/00/news-virgin

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Mondex
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:13:51 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

FWD: Mondex Update, By Chris Beard

Mondex commercials have been airing on Canadian television in promotion of
its MARC. The spots show the Mondex name and 3-ring Masonic logo. They also
tell us that it will not only be the cash alternative but our
identification alternative as well.

Notice that Mastercard (51% owner of Mondex International) has changed
their logo to "The future of money." They have also unveiled the 'SET MARK'
to accompany Mondex wherever it goes. Remember that SET is the Egyptian
name for Satan.

Try reading this press release replacing SET with the words Satan or
Satanic. Yet another coincidence?

http://www.mastercard.com/press/970718a.html

Recent Toronto Dominion commercials show a metal claw trying to awkwardly
grasp at coins. The sublime message is "monetary dexterity " just as Mondex
derived their name.

Health Canada is also running MARC commercials explaining that our health
cards will be part of the soon to arrive MARC.

Recently I was able to confirm with several banks the plan to go cashless.
Scotia Bank representatives have said that the bank will remove chequing
from their system altogether by some time this year (1998).

Toronto Dominion bank will only be accepting cash but not issuing it later
this year. They explained that you may turn it in for credit but
withdrawals will only be made using Mondex products.

The Royal Bank has issued a video to their shareholders with a proposal to
begin human chip implants THIS YEAR (1998).

A Bank of Montreal (MBANX) manager revealed to us that Mondex is not being
well accepted by merchants despite media propaganda. He also confirmed in
1997 that human chip implants would be in use within two years.

Mondex has decended like a cloud upon the city of Jacksonville, FLorida
just as it has in Guelph (Canada) as an initial US Mondexized site.

In the latest Mondex magazine, they show a thermographic image of a hand
holding a golden key.
From the hand is flowing a DNA strand that goes into a keyhole. The image
is very disturbing....

other Mondex info is here:

http://www.concentric.net/~Hommel/mark/

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Russia to help out Yugoslavia in case of war?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:09:57 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

[Mod Note: Golly this is getting interesting! Note the first name of
the Russian general that is being quoted -- Leonid. Could we
have two Leonids [the other being the meteor shower] showing
their stuff in Nov?]

Russia might consider military cooperation with Yugoslavia if
NATO strikes

Weekend News Today
By Staff Writer
Source: Yahoo!

Sun Oct 11 , 1998 -- Russia might consider military cooperation
with Yugoslavia if NATO went ahead with air strikes over the
Kosovo crisis, A Russian general said Saturday. ``In this case, I
think Russia would have the right to full-scale military cooperation
with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. You cannot abandon a
brotherly nation in such a crisis,'' Reuters quoted Leonid Ivashov,
head of the Defence Ministry's main directorate for International
Military Cooperation, as telling NTVtelevision.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: What's New at BPR?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:14:04 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Bible Prophecy Research and Study List
Additions and updates made since Oct 3, 1998:
Vol 1, Number 4
Monday, Oct 12, 1998

Greetings All!

Some people may be receiving duplicates of this newsletter.
If you are a member of the BPR List, then you won't need to
subscribe to these updates, as I'll send them through the
list as well. So, if you are receiving duplicates, just send
me a little note, and I'll take your name off the update list.

And now for what's new:
----------

> Added: "...to the angel of the church...He that hath an ear..."
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/a-008-01.htm

Interesting background material on the above phrases.

----------

> Added: The Number Seven
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/n-009-01.htm

A look at the number seven in scripture.

----------

> Added: A Woman Clothed With the Sun
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/w-007-01.htm

A pictorial representation of what John may have been
describing in Revelation Chapter 12.

----------

> Updated: Scroll
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/s-006-01.htm

> Updated: The Four Horsemen
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/f-005-01.htm

> Updated: Marriage
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/m-003-01.htm

> Updated: Gog
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/g-001-01.htm

> Updated: Numbers 10, 11, 12
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/n-008-01.htm

Thank you!
owner-bpr@philologos.org
http://philologos.org

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Pope Assured Listeners
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:20:32 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Earth-Changes Weekly
Sep 27 - Oct 3, 1998

POPE JOHN PAUL II ASSURED LISTENERS THE END IS
NOT YET NIGH -- To the dismay of Seventh Day Adventists,
Jehovah's Witnesses and followers of Nostradamus, but to the
relief of almost everyone else, Pope John Paul II declared that
the world is not about to end. He said that it was doomed to
end "at some point," but there was no fixed date, "nor can one
be discerned from the Bible." At a weekly audience in mid-April
of this year, the Pope assured his listeners that the end of the
world was not nigh, or anywhere near nigh, and said
widespread fears that the new millennium would usher in the
Last Judgment were unfounded. Italy has been gripped by pre-
millennial anxiety since the earthquakes in Umbria last
September (i.e., 1997), which killed 11 people and damaged
the Basilica of St Francis at Assisi. There are frequent rumours
that Vesuvius, which destroyed Pompeii in AD79 and last
erupted in 1944, is about to erupt again. The Vatican has
sought to reassure people that the mysterious Third Secret of
Fatima -- allegedly revealed by the Virgin Mary to three
Portuguese children in 1917 and kept secret by the Pope --
does not predict Doomsday. But books on Fatima and
interpretations of the arcane predictions of Nostradamus, the
16th-century sage, remain sought-after in bookshops.
Speaking on "The Second Coming of Christ at the End of All
Things," the Pope said that attempts to predict the end of the
world were "illusory and misleading ... history is moving towards
its conclusion, but Christ did not indicate any chronological
deadline." Apocalyptic visions were to be taken "symbolically"
as images of "the precarious position of humanity and the
sovereign power of Christ." Theological experts have said that
biblical references to the Apocalypse were at best "open to
interpretation," including the Revelation of St John, with its
visions of plagues, earthquakes and "mountains of fire"
ushering in "a new heaven and new earth." (The Times, 24
April 1998.)

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: BPR "to anoint the most Holy"?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:58:57 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi everybody,

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

"to anoint the most Holy."

Looking at the "most Holy" as the sanctuary, does anyone have any material
on what it means that it is anointed? Does that mean cleanse it or the
completion
of cleansing it? On what day was this done in Israel? The Day of Atonement?

Any input would be appreciated.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: BPR "to anoint the most Holy"?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:33:42 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Hi Ed,
Are we really sure this mention of "the most Holy" is referring to the
sanctuary? Seems to me taken in context the whole passage speaks of
Christ......He made an end of sins,(Romans 5:10), He made reconciliation
(Col 1:20), He brings in everlasting righteousness (Phil 3:9), He fulfilled
(sealed up?) the prophesies (Luke 24:27), and He is the Most Holy! (Hebrews
7:28, Rev 3:7, Acts 3:14,Mark 1:24,)

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Oct 13, 1998 TV Programs
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:11:51 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

8:00 pm eastern

PBS - NOVA - "Chasing El Nino!" - Scientists examine El
Nino and its effect on global weather.(CC)(TVG)

9:00

PBS - FRONTLINE - "Plague War" - The threats of
biological warfare to world security.(CC)

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: U.N. Goal: Disarm the World
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:45:43 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

DAILY HIGHLIGHTS

"A WORLD OF NEWS FROM THE WORLD
ORGANIZATION"

Monday, 12 October, 1998

Stressing that disarmament lay "at the heart" of United Nations
efforts to maintain international peace, Secretary-General Kofi
Annan called on the General Assembly committee dealing with
arms control issues to "take the lead" in working to rid the
world of the menace posed by various types of weapons.

In his statement at the opening of the general debate in the
Assembly's First (Disarmament and Security) Committee, the
Secretary- General welcomed the growing realization around
the world of the connection between two central themes of the
UN agenda -- disarmament and development. He also stressed
that disarmament must concern itself with small weapons as
well as large.

[...edit...]

Representatives of a number of countries participated in the
beginning of the First Committee's general debate on a wide
range of disarmament initiatives. Speaking on behalf of the
European Union, the representative of Austria said that the
Union attached the utmost importance to progress in the areas
of disarmament, arms control and non- proliferation as a key
element of the maintenance of peace and strengthening of
international security. He said the Union would continue to
make a substantial contribution to the promotion of the
international efforts in this respect. The representative of
Austria stressed, in part, that the European Union considered
that the Treaty on the Non- Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
remained a cornerstone of the global non-proliferation regime
and the essential foundation for the pursuit of nuclear
disarmament.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: U.N. Goal: Disarm the World
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:22:28 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Would you mind citing your sources when you post an article and if
there is a URL adding it ? I like to go and read the original and
pass on the URL to other interested parties. You normally do but
perhaps you forget sometimes.

For the UN to accomplish small arms control in our country would be
a gross violation of our constitutional rights ... and that right
should not be given away but by constitutional amendment. But you
watch ... our fearless leaders will squander it as if they had some
right to make that decision for millions of Americans all by
themselves without canvasing the states. And I doubt we see much
protest. When this freedom goes, the loss of our religious freedom
will follow rapidly on it's heels.

I have been reading about the early church and the British
Christians that fought for their freedom because they knew that
Christianity could only be practiced in a truly free country. It
was Britain that Rome opposed so violently with it's edicts of death
for Christians, Jews and Druidism (which is very interesting in
itself, by the way.) Britain was a bastion of freedom where
Christians could be taught and sent out to convert the rest of
Europe which was under Roman rule. As long as Britain was free,
Christianity (which threatened the Romans paganism and security)
could not be stopped. The Britains had long been associated with
Joseph of Arimathea and it is known that he left Jerusalem and
resettled in Britain about 4 years after Christ's death ...
commissioned by the Apostle Philip as Bishop to Britain.

It is recorded that the early British Christians, because they
believed in the immortality of the soul and had eyewitness of it's
fact because of the witness of Christ by the Apostles and Joseph of
Arimathea and other members of his party, spent their lives in the
battles against Rome fearlessly. (From the Drama of the Lost
Disciples, by George Jowett)

Our generations don't seem to want to fight for either their
freedoms or Christianity. It reminds me of the letter to the
Laodiceans ... being neither hot like the early Christians ...
though being not completeley dead either for we know the gospel of
Truth ... but being useless to God as witnesses because we will not
take a firm stand.

Donna

BPR wrote:
>
> From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
>
> DAILY HIGHLIGHTS
>
> "A WORLD OF NEWS FROM THE WORLD
> ORGANIZATION"
>
> Monday, 12 October, 1998
>
> Stressing that disarmament lay "at the heart" of United Nations
> efforts to maintain international peace, Secretary-General Kofi
> Annan called on the General Assembly committee dealing with
> arms control issues to "take the lead" in working to rid the
> world of the menace posed by various types of weapons.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: U.N. Goal: Disarm the World
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:26:58 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi Donna...
>
> Would you mind citing your sources when you post an article and if
> there is a URL adding it ? I like to go and read the original and
> pass on the URL to other interested parties. You normally do but
> perhaps you forget sometimes.

Yep'um... I forgot... sorta. Actually.. I was being lazy and got
caught. <g> I remembered that I hadn't posted the URL as I was
pushing the send button. I didn't think anyone would call me on it
though <g>. But you're good Donna.. took less than 30 mins. <g>

Ok... here ya go: http://www.un.org/News/dh/latest.htm

This is the U.N. site I gather.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: U.N. Goal: Disarm the World
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:35:48 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Thanks ! I was just checking my mail before work haha.

Donna

BPR wrote:

> From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
>
> Hi Donna...
>,
> >
> > Would you mind citing your sources when you post an article and if
> > there is a URL adding it ? I like to go and read the original and
> > pass on the URL to other interested parties. You normally do but
> > perhaps you forget sometimes.
>
> Yep'um... I forgot... sorta. Actually.. I was being lazy and got
> caught. <g> I remembered that I hadn't posted the URL as I was
> pushing the send button. I didn't think anyone would call me on it
> though <g>. But you're good Donna.. took less than 30 mins. <g>
>
> Ok... here ya go: http://www.un.org/News/dh/latest.htm
>
> This is the U.N. site I gather.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: List Study Topics
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:45:57 -0500

From: owner-bpr@philologos.org

Hi guys...

We had a good time in chat last night. I believe we will try to do
this each Monday night if we can. So if you're interested, we would
love to have you drop in for a visit.

The question was raised last night concerning our list or study
topics. We haven't had one for a while. Actually, I was considering
dropping that part of our "format." We weren't getting a lot of
feedback or participation in that area and since I'm not a teacher, I
didn't feel quite up to the task of maintaining the topic in question.

However, I'm willing to give 'er another try if anyone is interested. A
few topics I am currently interested in and may start working on soon
are:

The Battle of Gog and Magog
Possible Ancestry of the anti-Christ
A Study of the Millennium

If you have a particular passage or chapter in the Bible, or perhaps a
favorite topic, let us know.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: List Study Topics
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:14:38 -0700

From: "Paul Puckett" <PWP@localaccess.com>

could you give me the details of the whereabouts of the monday night
chat; being new, IRC didn't mean much to me. Thanks Paul

>From: owner-bpr@philologos.org
>
>Hi guys...
>
>We had a good time in chat last night. I believe we will try to do
>this each Monday night if we can. So if you're interested, we would
>love to have you drop in for a visit.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: List Study Topics
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:33:03 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi Paul...

> From: "Paul Puckett" <PWP@localaccess.com>
>
> could you give me the details of the whereabouts of the monday night
> chat; being new, IRC didn't mean much to me. Thanks Paul

okie dokie.. here are the details:

Monday nights 9pm EST
server: irc2.christian-chat.net
join #bpr

If you are needing more info, such as how to connect or what type
of program to use, let me know and I'll try to help. A warning
though, I'm only familiar with the program mIRC, so my help will be
quite limited. <g>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: fr. Ed to CL - Re: BPR "to anoint the most Holy"?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:00:27 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi CL,

It seems to me if it is Christ as you describe, then the 70 weeks which
concern God's people Israel are over because the anointing of the Most Holy
is the last thing accomplished.

If we take this to mean the anointing of the Holy Place, then the 70 weeks
would not be over, because that must still be accomplished. The 70th week
is the week of desolation in which the temple is desecrated and will be
re-established sometime after the end of the 70th week, and the Most Holy
would then be anointed, which was a command of God before its use:

Exo 30:25 And thou shalt make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment
compound after the art of the apothecary: it shall be an holy anointing oil.
Exo 30:26 And thou shalt anoint the tabernacle of the congregation
therewith, and the ark of the testimony,
Exo 30:27 And the table and all his vessels, and the candlestick and his
vessels, and the altar of incense,
Exo 30:28 And the altar of burnt offering with all his vessels, and the
laver and his foot.
Exo 30:29 And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy:
whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.
Exo 30:30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them,
that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exo 30:31 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, This
shall be an holy anointing oil unto me throughout your generations.
Exo 30:32 Upon man's flesh shall it not be poured, neither shall ye make
any other like it, after the composition of it: it is holy, and it shall be
holy unto you.

Christ IS the anointed one, our High Priest who comes back to establish the
temple
and the Abrahamic covenant. The anointing and rededication of the temple
will be necessary because of antichrist's desecration of it. He does that by
stopping the daily sacrifice, with both altars of the sanctuary being part
of that evening and morning sacrifice. I just learned that coals from the
brazen altar have incense added to them and then these coals are taken and
placed evening and morning on the altar of incense. Also part it was the
candlestick and the showbread. All of this will be anointed for Israel's
service in the millennial because the Anointed one has returned.

Daniel speaks of those blessed to reacht the 1335 day, and most expositors
believe this is the rededication of the temple in the millennium.

At 06:33 AM 10/13/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>From: skip007@sprynet.com
>
>Hi Ed,
>Are we really sure this mention of "the most Holy" is referring to the
>sanctuary? Seems to me taken in context the whole passage speaks of
>Christ......He made an end of sins,(Romans 5:10), He made reconciliation
>(Col 1:20), He brings in everlasting righteousness (Phil 3:9), He fulfilled
>(sealed up?) the prophesies (Luke 24:27), and He is the Most Holy! (Hebrews
>7:28, Rev 3:7, Acts 3:14,Mark 1:24,)
>
>CL
>
>--- BPR
>
>BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr
>
>
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: fr. CL to Ed - Re: BPR "to anoint the most Holy"?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:14:25 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Hi Ed,
Thanks for the explanation.
Actually I wasn't trying to say that the 70 weeks were fulfilled already.
Sorry if it seemed like that is what I meant.

I was trying to show that I think the scripture in question - Daniel 9:24
is fulfilled (or to be fulfilled) in Christ.

I looked up the word anoint (mashach - 4886 in the Strongs) and examined
the scriptures that contain it. There are a dozen or so that apply to
anointing a structure....such as a temple, altar, pillar, etc. About 15 or
so times it was used in a text concerning anointing a priest, a few times
it is used speaking of anointing the unleavened wafer, 2 times I found it
speaking of anointing a captain, but over 30 times it is used when speaking
of anointing a king!

I suppose that the end of the sentence, and to anoint the most Holy, could
be speaking of a temple......but even so, ultimately the temple is Christ
as well.
Revelation 21:22 - And I saw no temple therein; for the Lord God Almighty
and the Lamb are the temple of it.

I realize that many prophecies have a double fulfillment and I am not one
to over spiritualize everything. I do know that so much of what we read in
scripture and especially prophecy has its fulfillment in the natural also.
I just think that the "most Holy" that the verse is speaking of is Christ.

Thanks for posting all of your studies....

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: fr. CL to Ed - Re: BPR "to anoint the most Holy"?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 01:11:21 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi CL,

I can easily agree with you on all that you wrote below, but I have neevr
looked at it this way. You seem to have given me more to do <G>.

Thanks,
Ed

At 06:14 PM 10/13/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>From: skip007@sprynet.com
>
>
>Hi Ed,
>Thanks for the explanation.
>Actually I wasn't trying to say that the 70 weeks were fulfilled already.
>Sorry if it seemed like that is what I meant.
>
>I was trying to show that I think the scripture in question - Daniel 9:24
>is fulfilled (or to be fulfilled) in Christ.
>
>I looked up the word anoint (mashach - 4886 in the Strongs) and examined
>the scriptures that contain it. There are a dozen or so that apply to
>anointing a structure....such as a temple, altar, pillar, etc. About 15 or
>so times it was used in a text concerning anointing a priest, a few times
>it is used speaking of anointing the unleavened wafer, 2 times I found it
>speaking of anointing a captain, but over 30 times it is used when speaking
>of anointing a king!
>
>I suppose that the end of the sentence, and to anoint the most Holy, could
>be speaking of a temple......but even so, ultimately the temple is Christ
>as well.
>Revelation 21:22 - And I saw no temple therein; for the Lord God Almighty
>and the Lamb are the temple of it.
>
>I realize that many prophecies have a double fulfillment and I am not one
>to over spiritualize everything. I do know that so much of what we read in
>scripture and especially prophecy has its fulfillment in the natural also.
>I just think that the "most Holy" that the verse is speaking of is Christ.
>
>Thanks for posting all of your studies....
>
>CL
>
>
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Millennium Bug Bible Code
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:15:14 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Someone sent this to me and I thought it was interesting. I started
checking up on Numbers chapter 7 (which all the codes came from) and
there are some interesting things there.

------------------

The "Millennium Bug" Computer Problem in the Bible Codes

MILLENNIUM
"Millennium" in Hebrew (aleph-lamed-pey-shin-nun-hey) is encoded in
the Torah at an ELS of 23, beginning in Numbers 7:62 and ending in
Numbers 7:60.

BUG
The Hebrew slang word for "bug" (cheth-resh-koph) is encoded at an ELS
of 18 (in Numbers 7:61) and at an ELS of 154 (beginning in Numbers
7:69 and ending in Numbers 7:61). Both occurrences use the same final
"koph."

YEAR
The Hebrew word for "year" (shin-nun-hey) is highlighted twice in the
matrix, both at an ELS of 1. It is found in Numbers 7:53 and and in
Numbers 7:65.

2000
The Hebrew year "5760" (tav-shin-samek), which corresponds to the year
"2000," is highlighted twice in the matrix, both at an ELS of 38. Once
it begins in Numbers 7:56 and ends in Numbers 7:55; the next
occurrence begins in Numbers 7:68 and ends in Numbers 7:67.

COMPUTER
Underneath "millennium" is the Hebrew word for "computer"
(mem-cheth-shin-beth). This word is found at an ELS of 17, beginning
in Numbers 7:65 and ending in Numbers 7:63.

PROBLEM
Beginning with the final "beth" in "computer" and running diagonally
upward, the Hebrew word for "problem" (beth-ayin-yod-hey) appears. It
is found at an ELS of 112, beginning in Numbers 7:63 and ending in
Numbers 7:55.

DESTRUCTION, RUIN, HAVOC
The Hebrew word for "destruction," "ruin," or "havoc" (hey-resh-samek)
appears at an ELS of 194, beginning in Numbers 7:71 and ending in
Numbers 7:61.

USA
The Hebrew acronym for the United States (aleph-resh-hey-beth) appears
in the matrix at an ELS of 173, beginning in Numbers 7:54 and ending
in Numbers 7:67.

GOVERNMENT
The Hebrew word for "goverment" (mem-mem-shin-lamed-hey) appears at an
ELS of 239, beginning in Numbers 7:53 and ending in Numbers 7:75.

BRING DOWN, FAIL
The Hebrew word for "bring down" or "fail" (hey-pey-yod-lamed) is
found at an ELS of 109, beginning in Numbers 7:74 and ending in
Numbers 7:67.

ELECTRICITY, ELECTRIC
The Hebrew word for "electricity" (cheth-shin-mem-lamed) appears at an
ELS of 154, beginning in Numbers 7:68 and ending in Numbers 7:57.
Additionally, using the root word for "electricity," the word for
"electrical" or "electric" (cheth-shin-mem-lamed-yod) can be found
beginning in Numbers 7:68 and ending in Numbers 7:54.

CUT OFF, SEVER, DISRUPT
The Hebrew word for "cut off," "sever," or "disrupt"
(lamed-nun-tav-koph), which relates specifically to electricity or
telephone service, appears at an ELS of 154, beginning in Numbers 7:71
and ending in Numbers 7:59.

DISRUPTIVE
The Hebrew word for "disruptive" (mem-shin-beth-shin) is found at an
ELS of 45, beginning in Numbers 7:55 and ending in Numbers 7:59.

PANIC
The Hebrew word for "panic" (beth-hey-lamed-hey) appears at an ELS of
199, beginning in Numbers 7:55 and ending in Numbers 7:68.

FAMINE
The biblical Hebrew word for "famine" (resh-ayin-beth-yod-nun) is
found at an ELS of 67; the middle "beth" is the last letter of
"computer" and the first letter of "problem." "Famine" begins in
Numbers 7:66 and ends in Numbers 7:60.

HUNGER, STARVATION
Beginning next to the final "koph" in "cut off" and just above
"millennium," the Hebrew word for "hunger" or "starvation"
(resh-ayin-beth) appears. It is found at an ELS of 65, beginning in
Numbers 7:59 and ending in Numbers 7:55.

PLAGUE
The Hebrew word for "plague" (nun-gimel-ayin) appears in the matrix at
an ELS of 52, beginning in Numbers 7:71 and ending in Numbers 7:73.

DEATH
The Hebrew word for "death" (mem-vav-tav) appears at an ELS of 45,
beginning in Numbers 7:59 and ending in Numbers 7:61.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: fr. to Ed: "to anoint the most Holy"?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:35:23 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi all...

> From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
>
> Hi CL,
>
> I can easily agree with you on all that you wrote below, but I have neevr
> looked at it this way. You seem to have given me more to do <G>.

Yeah, me too Ed! <g> This is an interesting topic. I would say it's
probably split down the middle those that believe the verse refers to
the temple and those the believe it refers to Christ. There are good
arguments either way.

I was browsing Bullinger's Companion Bible and was noting his
comments. He and I don't agree on a lot of things when it comes to
end-times interpretation, so I'm not presenting this as though I'm
agreeing with him (although I think I might <g>). Just pointing out
what he has to say about it.

First of all, he makes the statement that "to anoint the most Holy" is
referring to "a Holy of Holies" and is never used of a person. He
doesn't back that statement up with other references, so I'm
assuming he's referring to the different Hebrew words that are used.
I'll explain later. He then goes on to say that Dan 9:24 answers to
the cleansing of the sanctuary of Dan 8:14 which "immediately
preceeds the end."

Now is Dan 8:14 a near and far prophecy? The immediate
interpretation refers to Antiochus' desecration of the temple,
followed by its cleansing carried out by Judas Maccabeus on Dec.
25, 165. (I mention the dates, cause I know you're interested in
placement of the feasts during the 70th week Ed). I believe that
Antiochus was a type of anti-Christ, so can we conclude what
Bullinger is concluding -- that 9:24 is referring back to 8:14?

About Bullinger's reference to "anoint the most holy" is never used
of a person. I at first wasn't sure what he was referring to until I
started examing the different Hebrew words for "holy" and their
usages. From what I can gather [6918] "qadowsh" (holy) is used
when referring to God's holiness (or saints, angels, living things,
people, etc.) When referring to a sacred thing or place the word
[6944] "qodesh" appears to be used. I haven't done a very
thorough search through the O.T. to see if this holds up, but for the
few verses I have examined, this does appear to be true. I did find
a couple of exceptions though. However, where the holy place
and most holy are mentioned in reference to the temple, "qodesh" is
used.

So looking at Dan 9:24 -- "to anoint the most Holy" -- we see the
word "qodesh" is used. It's also used in "holy city" in the same
verse.

This would lend *some* support, IMO, to the interpretation that the
verse is referring to the temple.

However, I like and agree with what CL said about this verse
ultimately being fulfilled in Christ as well, for He is the Temple.

I'm wondering what temple we all are referring to here? The Millennial
Temple -- the one Christ will rebuild? Since He will reside in the
temple.. since He *is* the temple, would anointing one be the same
as anointing both? Just thinking out loud...don't hold me to my thoughts. <g>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: fr. to Ed: "to anoint the most Holy"?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:20:20 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Hi Everyone,

> > I can easily agree with you on all that you wrote below, but I have
neevr
> > looked at it this way. You seem to have given me more to do <G>.
>
> Yeah, me too Ed! <g> This is an interesting topic.

Well, I think I have more to do too!! This *is* an interesting topic.
The word "holy" (6944 'godesh') that is used there is also the same word
that is translated as "most" immediatley preceding it. So it seems to say
"holy holy"....which does make one think of the Holy of Holies.
So, is it possible that this scripture also has it's fulfillment in the
natural (as a physical, earthly temple) as well as in the spiritual (as our
heavenly temple, Jesus)?
Still studying,
CL

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: fr. Ed - "anointing the most Holy"
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:05:38 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi everybody,

Here is one informative reply I got from my email list.

Ed--

In this passage, to "anoint the most Holy" refers to the cleansing of the
holy of holies, the temple, and the city of Jerusalem from the abomination
of desolation by the Antichrist, and to the anointing of the Millenial
temple of Ezekiel 40-43 and Zechariah 6:12-13. The word "to anoint" --as,
indeed, are all the verbs after "are determined" in this verse-- are Hebrew
infinitive forms known as the Infinitive Construct ... which is most
comparable to our verbal nouns ending in "-ing". So by putting them into
the proper English form, we can get a little clearer understanding of the
meanings. For example, the words "to anoint the most Holy" would now read:
"anointing the most Holy". In other words, it is a result. What is it that
leads to this result? Let's similarly look at the entire verse again.

In the KJV it reads: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon
thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the
most Holy."

Using the subtleties of the Hebrew verb forms to help us decipher the
meaning of this passage, we can understand that Daniel was being told that
"Seventy weeks are marked off or set aside for the nation of Israel and for
the Holy City, (for the purpose of) finishing rebellion against God, and
destroying (Hebrew: tamam in its Hiphil pattern) sin, and covering over (or
atoning for) iniquity, and bringing to pass (Hebrew: bow in its Hiphil form)
everlasting righteousness, and stopping up the prophecy and the prophets,
and anointing the most Holy." Therefore it is now easier to see that the
purpose of the 70 weeks is to accomplish the finishing, the destroying, the
covering over, and the bringing to pass of everlasting righteousness, the
ending of prophecy and prophets, and the anointing or consecration (Hebrew:
mashach) of the Holy of Holies.

As to your question whether "anointing" here means the cleansing or the
completion of cleansing, since the final phrase refers to the CONSECRATION
of the Holy of Holies, it must refer not to the act(s) of cleansing it but
to the completion of the cleansing.

Hope this helps a little.

--Adrian B.

stef wrote:

> --------------------------------
> INQ81: (fr. Ed) "anoint the most Holy"? 10-13-98
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
> city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
> reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
> to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
>
> "to anoint the most Holy."
>
> Looking at the "most Holy" as the sanctuary, does anyone have any material
> on what it means that it is anointed? Does that mean cleanse it or the
> completion
> of cleansing it? On what day was this done in Israel? The Day of Atonement?
>
> Any input would be appreciated.
>
> Ed

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: fr. Ed - "anointing the most Holy"
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 20:21:04 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

perhaps it means the cleansing and re-dedication of the temple ...
not a building but the body that IS the holy city ... ie. God's
people ... as in New Jerusalem.

I think that "the Holy city" is a metaphor for the people of God
taken as a whole ... those that really belong to him. If you
anoint the temple body then you are also in a sense annointing
Christ also and indeed the whole ... because he is the head of the
body which we are ...

perhaps it means annointing of the most Holy who will make up that
congregation ... the many brethren of Yeshua.

I don't profess to know but just offering suggestions.

Donna

BPR wrote:
>
> From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Here is one informative reply I got from my email list.
>
> Ed
>
> Ed--
>
> In this passage, to "anoint the most Holy" refers to the cleansing of the
> holy of holies, the temple, and the city of Jerusalem from the abomination
> of desolation by the Antichrist, and to the anointing of the Millenial
> temple of Ezekiel 40-43 and Zechariah 6:12-13. The word "to anoint" --as,
> indeed, are all the verbs after "are determined" in this verse-- are Hebrew
> infinitive forms known as the Infinitive Construct ... which is most
> comparable to our verbal nouns ending in "-ing". So by putting them into
> the proper English form, we can get a little clearer understanding of the
> meanings. For example, the words "to anoint the most Holy" would now read:
> "anointing the most Holy". In other words, it is a result. What is it that
> leads to this result? Let's similarly look at the entire verse again.
>
> In the KJV it reads: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon
> thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and
> to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
> righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the
> most Holy."
>
> Using the subtleties of the Hebrew verb forms to help us decipher the
> meaning of this passage, we can understand that Daniel was being told that
> "Seventy weeks are marked off or set aside for the nation of Israel and for
> the Holy City, (for the purpose of) finishing rebellion against God, and
> destroying (Hebrew: tamam in its Hiphil pattern) sin, and covering over (or
> atoning for) iniquity, and bringing to pass (Hebrew: bow in its Hiphil form)
> everlasting righteousness, and stopping up the prophecy and the prophets,
> and anointing the most Holy." Therefore it is now easier to see that the
> purpose of the 70 weeks is to accomplish the finishing, the destroying, the
> covering over, and the bringing to pass of everlasting righteousness, the
> ending of prophecy and prophets, and the anointing or consecration (Hebrew:
> mashach) of the Holy of Holies.
>
> As to your question whether "anointing" here means the cleansing or the
> completion of cleansing, since the final phrase refers to the CONSECRATION
> of the Holy of Holies, it must refer not to the act(s) of cleansing it but
> to the completion of the cleansing.
>
> Hope this helps a little.
>
> --Adrian B.
>
> stef wrote:
>
> > --------------------------------
> > INQ81: (fr. Ed) "anoint the most Holy"? 10-13-98
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
> > city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
> > reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
> > to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
> >
> > "to anoint the most Holy."
> >
> > Looking at the "most Holy" as the sanctuary, does anyone have any material
> > on what it means that it is anointed? Does that mean cleanse it or the
> > completion
> > of cleansing it? On what day was this done in Israel? The Day of Atonement?
> >
> > Any input would be appreciated.
> >
> > Ed
>
> --- BPR
>
> BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

----------------------------------------------:)

"A weapon is best applied in the manner for which
it was designed. So it is with the Sword of the
Spirit, the Word of God, designed to be applied in
love not brute force." (BTH 1998)

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: fr. Ed - "anointing the most Holy"
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 20:23:04 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Thanks, Ed. This information is *very* informative and helps alot!
God Bless,
CL

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: fr. Ed 2300 days?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:34:22 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi everybody,

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that
certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the
daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the
sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

From the time of the daily sacrifice - midweek - being taken away is 2300
days:

1. If that is really 1150 days, then the temple will be reconsecrated 110
days BEFORE the end of the 70th week.

2. If that is really 2300 days, then the temple will be reconsecrated 1040
days AFTER the end of the 70th week, or 2 years 10 months and 2 weeks after.

Both of these seem unacceptable. It is not reasonable that the temple will
be reconsecrated at either of these times. Would like some input on this.
Could it be from when the sacrifices are begun rather than when when they
are taken away? This is what I have in one of my charts, but would like
some input on any other ideas on it.

One more question on these 2300 days. When according to Daniel 8, would be the
last day of these 2300 days? Would it be:

1. on the last day of Daniel's 70th week?
2. on the 30th day after the end of the week that Daniel mentioned?
3. on the 1335th day that Daniel mentioned?

If this can be determined, which I think it can from the scriptures, we
could subtract 2300 days from that day and get a possible day on which the
sacrifices would actually begin.

Thanks,
Ed

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Yeltsin 'may have to resign'?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:05:17 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Yeltsin 'may have to resign'???

Weekend News Today By Staff Writer Source: BBC

Thu Oct 15 , 1998 -- The influential Major of Moscow, Yuri Luzhkov,
has publicly suggested that President Yeltsin may have to resign, due
to his persistent health problems. He told the BBC that it was clear
that Mr Yeltsin wasn't well enough to rule Russia, and raised the
possibility of holding early presidential elections in Russia. His
comments are the first public criticism of Mr Yeltsin's physical
ability to govern. Mr Luzhkov - who has just announced plans to set up
a new centre-left party - said he might be prepared to run for office
himself under certain circumstances. He is widely regarded as one of
the most likely candidates to become Russia's next president. A recent
opinion poll put him in second place close behind the Communist Party
leader Gennady Zyuganov. The BBC Moscow correspondent in Moscow,
Andrew Harding, says even Boris Yeltsin's allies now appear to be
deserting him.

Weekend News Today
upway.com/cgi.bin/went

   [I just find this interesting seeing that Clinton might have to
   resign and now Yeltsin. Just who is going to be running
   the world then--who will be in charge of the superpower?--Moza]

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Art Bell explains his "disappearance"
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:17:06 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Popular radio talk-show personality Art Bell stopped broadcasting
earlier this week and left without much of an explanation. His shows
dealt mostly with paranormal events (please see www.artbell.com for
transcripts of his shows). The following is supposedly his
explanation of what has been going on that would make such a highly
successful radio personality suddenly leave without any warning
(although many people have pointed out the fact that his parent
company has just been bought by someone else and that this could be
contract negotiation nonsense). From what I've seen and read of Art
Bell, I do believe he thinks he's been contacted by aliens.

-----begin-----

Art Bell Allegedly Posts Explanation Message On News Group Board

10-14-98

                 Subject: My leaving
                 From: Art Bell <artbell@aol.com
                 Date: 10/14/98 3:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                 Message-id: <36251F6A.5F27@aol.com

To my loyal fans:

I want you to be the first people to know what is going
on and I'm sorry I can't go into more detail but I will give you what
I can.

About a year ago I was contacted by a person claiming to
be from the future. He called himself Single Seven. He said
that he had come back on a mission to find certain species of fruits
and vegetables that can grow in hotter climates. To make the long
story short, Single Seven told me he had gone back and researched me
and said there had been a terrible tragedy that happened to Ramona and
me. I lived but Ramona did not. Let me tell you there have been
threats on my life in the past and not just empty threats. There are
some leaders of this country that find my program to be of great
danger to their agenda. The only way that, hopefully, I can change
this situation is to do completely opposite of what I would have done
that would lead to Ramona's demise.

About a year ago on my first contact with Single Seven he
told me some things that would take place within this year and
everyone of them has happened exactly as he said. He called me
about a week ago and told me it is time for me to do what I have to
do. He gave me one sign that would show me he was telling the truth.
I took last week off as you know and the sign came exactly as Single
Seven had said. Now that I am off the air there are some things that
should happen including one big event. If that event happens, as
Single Seven says it will, I will be safe to be back on the air in a
few weeks.

You people have been fantastic. I'm sorry I can't tell
you more right now but you will find out soon enough. Please pray for
me and Ramona, our safety depends on God's help.

Until I talk to you again,

Art

-----end-----

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: The Revelation of the Sons of God
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:59:24 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

I asked following question to another list I am, but thought I would get
some badly needed input from this one as well.

Hi everybody,

I had written a page for my web site a few years ago concerning the release
of corruption at the time the glorious sons of God are revealed. I have
really tried to understand the prewrath belief and realized last night that
what I described on that page also bothers me about the prewrath doctrine.
Maybe somebody can help me with this one so I can understand the prewrath
belief on these verses more clearly. I have changed what I have on the web
page a little in order to keep my questioning in the context of the
prewrath doctrine.

Romans 8:18-25 paints a picture of the fulfillment of the saints' hope of
glory, revealed at the revelation of Christ:

18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to
be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by
reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of
corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain
together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of
the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a
man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We know that the Church is "waiting for the coming [revelation] of our Lord
Jesus Christ:" (1 Cor. 1:7). The reason for our anticipation lies in verse
19 of the above passages: "the glory [of God] which shall be revealed in
us." But that's not all; creation shares in this "earnest expectation" (v.
19) because it too "shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into
the glorious liberty of the children of God." The Church and creation are
both groaning (vv. 22-23) and eagerly awaiting (vv. 19,23) the ONE EVENT
that will fulfill their SAME HOPE (vv. 20,24): the glory of Christ revealed
in them. These expectations are based on the same hope:

"23: And NOT ONLY THEY, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of
the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24: For we are saved by hope:
" (Romans 8).

This scene describes the simultaneous breaking of the bonds of decay in
nature and the changing of the bodies of the saints, when Christ is
revealed. This is where my problem lies. This is a posttribulational event
because the rapture (including the changing of our bodies) cannot occur at
a different time from the freeing of the creation from decay. Why? Because
the world would go through a good part of the tribulation with creation
"delivered from the bondage of corruption," experiencing "the glorious
liberty of the children of God" under the reign of antichrist. Bob Gundry
concurs:

"In Romans 8:18-25 the redemption of our bodies coincides with the
deliverance of nature. But that deliverance will certainly not occur before
the ravages of the tribulation" (The Church and The Tribulation, p. 36).

The changing of the saints in the prewrath doctrine has to occur at least
5-6 months before the end of the week because of the fifth trumpet, and
Rosenthenal or van Kampen, I believe, said it could even be up to a year or
more and before the end of the 70th week. After the prewrath rapture or
changing of the saints, I have been told that the trumpets and God's wrath
begin right then. If we are to be raptured at least five months to a year
and half before the end of the 70th week, the world would experience the
joys of a changed creation under the reign and terrors of antichrist.
Furthermore, when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation, He would
pour out God's wrath on a creation that was freed from corruption at least
five or six months before:

Chart as it pertains to Pretribulationism:
http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/creation.htm

This chart basically shows this when we look at Romans 8:23 and insert it
into the prewrath doctrine:

Rapture------->Trumpets1234567-------->Bowls1234567
Creation Wrath comes upon
changed creation released
from corruption

The times are serious but we do manage to have "fun" at times discussing
these things, but I really would like a serious SCRIPTURAL answer to this
because we are basically dealing with each other's spiritual future in what
we teach and share. The above scenario is very bothersome to me and would
like help on it. This is no little point, but involves the glorious hope of
the Body of Christ and the creation in which we live at the present moment.

The Seven Trumpets After The Revelation Of The Sons Of God

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden
censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it
with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the
throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the
saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the
altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings,
and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared
themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled
with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees
was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain
burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea
became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had
life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from
heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the
rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part
of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because
they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was
smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars;
so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a
third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of
heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the
earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven
unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of
the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were
darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto
them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of
the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men
which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. . . .
Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four
horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four
angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour,
and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred
thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. . . . Rev 10:7 But in
the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants
the prophets. . . .
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in
heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our
Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Revelation of the Sons of God
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:21:29 -0500

From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>

>
> Trumpets1234567-------->Bowls1234567------------->Rapture/
> Wrath comes upon
> Creation
> creation released
> changed
>
>
> from corruption

Hi Ed,

Matt24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall
all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
*****31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to
the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and
putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,
even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things
be fulfilled.

Here is a biblical answer to your question, the rapture doesn't happen till after
the tribulation. It looks to me as if this would free you up to have everything
occur in its proper order.

Now just to be clear, I am not saying anyone can know the time or hour. But, we
can surely know the season, just as the Kings from the East knew of the Birth of
Jesus.
Be blessed,

Alan

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Revelation of the Sons of God
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:41:39 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Hi Ed,
I was thinking about all you have said here and wondering if it is possible
that the "breaking of bonds of decay in nature and the changing of the
bodies of the saints" is maybe *not* simultaneous. Vs. 23 says that we are
the firstfruits.....could it be that we will be changed at the rapture and
creation will be changed after the tribulation?
You mention that the church and creation are both awaiting the ONE EVENT,
the SAME HOPE. But this reminds me of Ephesians 4:5 "One Lord, one faith,
one baptism." And of course we know that we didn't all receive Him as Lord,
come to the faith, or get baptised at the same time. The word of God says
that creation is eagerly awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God.
This word manifestation [Strongs 602 - apokalupsis] has the meaning
revelation, or revealing, but it also has the meaning "coming" or
"appearing". Isn't it possible that the church will be changed when are
raptured and the earth will be changed at the appearing of the sons of
God?, when we return with the Lord to the earth?
It seems to me that just because it is the same "hope", it doesn't have to
be at the same "time" or "event".
This is a good topic to look into and I am glad you presented it to the
list.
God Bless,
CL

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Revelation of the Sons of God
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:25:43 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Well it sort of goes along with this ... why does Christ say in the
Parable of the Sower that the wheat and tares grow up together and
at the harvest the angels gather the tares first and throw them into
the fire AND THEN harvest the wheat ?

And why does he talk about the Days of Noah where the wicked were
taken away but the righteous are left safely in the world ... and
then talk about the two men in the field and one taken ? Or the two
women grinding at the mill and one taken ? If you really follow the
subject then you realize that they were meant to be taken together
... each was an example of the same principle ... the wicked were
taken out of the world during Noah's time ... and one was taken from
the field and from the mill in modern times.

An interesting explanation of the grinding at the mill and working
in the field illustrations comes from the book of Idioms by George
Lamsa who was born in an isolated area of modern day Assyria that
still spoke the Aramaic of Christ's day. He says that in the
middle eastern culture it was understood that the women (mother and
daughter) would work together at the mill while the men (father and
son) would work in the fields. During times of persecution and
wars the young ones (son and daughter) would be taken captive but
the old man and woman would be left.

And why does Christ say in Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk
naked, and they see his shame. (KJV) ? He's coming to take
something from the unwary ... those that don't watch ... those that
don't have on their gospel armour.
He makes the same statement to the Church of Sardis in Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast,
and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee
as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV) It was THE CHURCH that Christ gave warning to that he would
come on them as a thief ... not the world ... and then in the 6th
trump he still hasn't come as a thief yet. That alone tells me
that the church is present during first six trumps.

These are but a few examples. Because of them and others I do not
believe in a "rapture" ... but rather in a gathering of the saints
at harvest time ... after the tares are identified and weeded out.
So, I guess my answer would be that you are right to question a
pre-wrath view. I personally don't believe there is a way to
understand it because I do not believe it to be the truth.

(Not trying to offend anyone ... just offering my viewpoint.)

Donna

BPR wrote:
>
> From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
>
> I asked following question to another list I am, but thought I would get
> some badly needed input from this one as well.
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Revelation of the Sons of God
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:58:43 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Hi again,
The more I think about this the more I believe that it really cannot be
possible to have creation and the believers changed at the same time.
Since creation was subjected to decay because of man's sin, then creation
will obviously benefit from man's redemption. Isaiah 11:6-9 describes
this, " The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down
with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; Their
young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the
ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child
shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in
all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the
LORD As the waters cover the sea." Is it possible that the change in
creation is a result of man's redemption?, just as the corruption of
creation was a result of man's fall? When the body of Christ is raptured
there will still be many who do not yet know the Lord but will eventually
become heirs of salvation during the tribulation. The redemption of
mankind as a whole then will not be complete yet at the rapture. Just some
more thoughts!
CL

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: CNV News Items
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:40:04 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Used to be-Or Never?
"I used to be a fundamentalist Christian," says Mike Likvan of
Chicago. But then he says, "I opened my mind and started listening to
my 'inner voice.' " He credits his change to Conversations With God,
Book I, by Neale Donald Walsch. The book has stayed on the best-seller
lists for two solid years. It has become the new "gospel" for a
generation mistrustful of organized religion.

In the book, God supposedly tells Walsch, "Listen to your feelings.
Listen to your Highest Thoughts. Listen to your experience. Whenever
any one of these differs from what you've been told by your teachers
or read in your books, forget the words. Words are the least reliable
purveyor of Truth" (Moody, 9-10/98).
----------

Scientific Journals or The Book?
Americans have much stronger belief in the Bible's story of human
origins than do other industrialized nations, says an "astounded"
political scientist about his recent study. About 45% of Americans
believe that God created man "pretty much in his present form at one
time within the last 10,000 years." Another 40% believe in "theistic
evolution"--human evolution over millions of years with God's
guidance. Only 10% of Americans hold the Darwinian view. By
comparison, only 7% of those surveyed in Great Britain accept the
biblical account.

Professor George Bishop of the University of Cincinnati concluded
about his study, "We don't stack up very well as a nation. Religious
belief tends to be inversely correlated with what most scientists say
is simple fact." The groups most likely to accept the biblical account
were women, older Americans, the less well-educated, Southerners,
blacks, and fundamentalist Protestants (Washington Times, 8/22/98).
----------

Darkness in a catechism: Light in the Bible
Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and other non-Christians might be destined
for eternal life, says a proposed catechism by the Presbyterian Church
(U.S.A.). "How God will deal with those who don't know or follow
Christ, but who follow another tradition, we cannot finally say," the
catechism says in one place. "We can say, however, that God is
gracious and merciful."

Unlike some catechisms of old, where declarations of faith were meant
to be memorized, this proposed catechism is conversational in tone and
does not claim to have all the answers. "Will all human beings be
saved? How will God deal with the followers of other religions?" The
catechism does not give a certain answer to these questions, but
states only God knows if there are any limits to salvation. "And no
judge could possibly be more gracious than our Lord and Savior Jesus
Christ" (Midnight Call, 9/98).
----------

Un-conscience of self-conscienceless
Princeton University has hired a bioethics professor who advocates
animal rights and rejects the sanctity of human life. Australian Peter
Singer, 52, argues that children with birth defects have less moral
value than many animals and can be euthanized.

"That a being is a human being, in the sense of a member of the
species homo sapiens, is not relevant to the wrongness of killing it,"
Singer writes in his book Practical Ethics. "It is, rather,
characteristics like rationality, autonomy and self-consciousness that
make a difference. Defective infants can lack these characteristics.
Killing a defective infant is not morally equivalent to killing a
person. Sometimes it is not wrong at all" (Christian News, 9/21/98).

Christian News & Views
http://cnview.com/

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Wow that was some news
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:00:24 -0500

From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>

And scary too

Anyway, I usually go to this site to participate in a survey. And
considering that this time there doing a survey on ordering online with
cashless payment options, I thought some of you would be interested in
giving your valued opinion. :o)

The URL is:
http://www.greenfieldonline.com/

You will need to register. And the survey is located in the respondents
wanted section. It is survey #233. Ya'll have a good evening.

Alan

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: BPR - fr. Ed to Alan - Re: The Revelation of the Sons of God
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 00:39:01 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Thanks, Alan,

That's what I have been believing. It is not even that the moment we
are changed that creation is suddenly glorious, but it is a turning
point for the restoration of all things. But with this scenario, it
at least happens in an orderly, fluent fashion and without any gaps.

Thanks,
Ed

At 05:21 PM 10/16/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>
>
>>
>> Trumpets1234567-------->Bowls1234567------------->Rapture/
>> Wrath comes upon
>> Creation
>> creation released
>> changed
>>
>>
>> from corruption
>
>Hi Ed,
>
>Matt24:
>29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened,
>and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from
heaven, and
>the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
>30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
shall
>all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
coming in
>the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
>*****31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
they
>shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of
heaven to
>the other.
>32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and
>putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
>33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,
>even at the doors.
>34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these
things
>be fulfilled.
>
>
>Here is a biblical answer to your question, the rapture doesn't happen
till after
>the tribulation. It looks to me as if this would free you up to have
everything
>occur in its proper order.
>
>Now just to be clear, I am not saying anyone can know the time or hour.
But, we
>can surely know the season, just as the Kings from the East knew of the
Birth of
>Jesus.
>Be blessed,
>
>Alan
>
>--- BPR
>
>BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr
>
>
>

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