To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:23:57 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Bands,

Whether Jesus is a prince (over the kings of the earth) or king, he
still doesn't need someone to give him a crown, he already has it and
you seem to prove that point with the rest of your post. You have
decided to concentrate on the tree [the word king or prince] instead
of the forest [just who Jesus is].

As far as the rest of your post, I'm with Tom:

> I really don't want to argue and go against the unity of the spirit
> in the bond of peace. I was just hoping you would rethink your
> position and do some more study.

I am aware of the fact that you consider yourself one of the two
witnesses of Revelation, but I don't wish to hear of any private
revelation given to you, as when you say to Tom "The Lord has
given me the Discernment of the subject Seven Seals, and I can find
no reason to argue with any man, pertaining to that which The Lord
has told me"--just the fact that you consider yourself one of the two
witnesses is flawed. I was hesitant about talking about your claim to
be a witness, but I think the rest of the people on this list need to
be aware of just what they are dealing with here and pray that you
are convicted of your error.

I am taking my 15 cents and going to the bank,
Moza

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:41:06 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Just a few thoughts on the White Horse topic......

Seems to me there are basically two views here.....that the rider of the
white horse is either Jesus (or His spirit [?]), or the antichrist.

In my dictionary, Noah Webster says that anti is a Greek preposition
signifying against, opposite, contrary, or IN PLACE OF.
Seems we tend to forget that last definition, in place of.

The antichrist will be against Christ, yes, but he will also be "in place
of". He will claim to be Christ. (Thereby making his followers
"Christians"!!)

My other thought is that of all the kingdoms in this world, the Pope, the
leader of Vatican City and it's 9 million or so subjects, is GIVEN a crown,
as opposed to inheriting one.

The title which the pope claims is "Pontifex Maximus: Vicar of Christ".
The title "Vicar of Christ", is most interesting. Vicar comes from the
Latin word "vicarious". The Greek equivalent would be "anti".

Also, I read somewhere once that when the pope walks in a procession he
carries a "bow", (a bent staff, with no arrows) signifying peace.....but I
can't document this.....maybe someone else can.
 
Moza made some good points. I will pitch in a dime. <g>

CL

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:52:51 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

One more point,
In Revelation 19 where John describes the Lord Jesus coming in power he
identifies Him by name!, ("he that sat upon him was called Faithful and
True"), Jesus gave himself this identifier back in chapter 3! Seems John
identifies Him here for a reason......to possibly differenciate between
these two riders, as he doesn't identify the rider in chapter 6 this way.

CL

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:24:29 -0500

From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>

I know this is a very interesting track that this newsgroup is on so here's
my two cents :o)
If someone were to look at the world right now there are three major powers
out there, that have the resources and the ability to rule the world. As I
see it these are the three political bodies we have represented in the first
three seals.

>[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were
the noise of >thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
>[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow;
and a crown was >given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to
conquer.

The first horse is white and the rider has no arrows. How is he conquering?
And isn't a white horse something a King (or a Kings Ambassdor) would ride?
This looks to me like the Roman Catholic Church.

>[3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say,
Come and see.
>[4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to
him that sat thereon >to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill
one another: and there was given unto him a >great sword.

One of the other major Dominate powers now is Communism. And one of thier
primary identifiers is the color red. Also they do take peace from any land
they go into. And it seems they usually go in and take over by military
force.

>[5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come
and see. And I >beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a
pair of balances in his hand.

This would seem to me to represent Capitalism(black), also notice the
balances.

>[7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth
beast say, Come and >see.
>[8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was
Death, and Hell >followed with him. And power
>was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword,
and with hunger, and >with death, and with the beasts
>of the earth.

When I saw someone write that this seemed to be the Environmental movement, I
was in 100% agreement. Green is their color and this is also the primary
motivation behind most of the new agers(mother earth)

Has anyone considered which of the trumpets has sounded? The only one I am
even close be being sure about is the third one.

>[10] And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven,
burning as it were a >lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers,
and upon the fountains of waters;
>[11] And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the
waters became >wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were
made bitter.

Wormwood is an herb sometimes used for healing it is bitter. What has me
completely astounded is that Chornobyl means Wormwood in the Russian
language. When that reactor blew up nuclear fallout came across Europe,
across the Atlantic and part way across America. This has poisoned many lakes
and streams and many animals and people have died as result of it.

Any more ideas out there?

thanks,

Alan

BPR wrote:

> From: skip007@sprynet.com
>
> One more point,
> In Revelation 19 where John describes the Lord Jesus coming in power he
> identifies Him by name!, ("he that sat upon him was called Faithful and
> True"), Jesus gave himself this identifier back in chapter 3! Seems John
> identifies Him here for a reason......to possibly differenciate between
> these two riders, as he doesn't identify the rider in chapter 6 this way.
>
> CL

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:59:39 -0800

From: Wight <wight@alaska.net>

Here is my interpretation of Rev. 6:1-8:
This passage is talking about the antichrist and the stages to his rule.
In the beginning, he is going to appear to bring peace, hence the white
horse, but eventually there will be open warfare(red horse). The third
seal (black horse) represent famine: "a quart of wheat for a day's
wages...". Again, this is like a timeline of the tribulation. The pale
horse clearly represents death. The death is probably the inevitable
result of disease that accompanies war and famine. So again, I think the
white horse represents "false peace" of the antichrist.

My2cents,
Shelley

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:54:09 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi Alan ... everyone....

Alan wrote:

> Wormwood is an herb sometimes used for healing it is bitter. What
> has me completely astounded is that Chornobyl means Wormwood in
> the Russian language. When that reactor blew up nuclear fallout
> came across Europe, across the Atlantic and part way across
> America. This has poisoned many lakes and streams and many animals
> and people have died as result of it.

I read a discussion (perhaps a year ago) between two Christians
where one, being a Russian, insisted that the word "Chernobyl"
does NOT mean "wormwood." The other said that he had a
Russian friend that told him it did. (I thought... great... maybe it
depends on which part of Russia you're from. <g>)

I think the general concensus is that the word does mean
"wormwood," but I would like to be certain. I didn't question it
when I first saw it, but since that discussion between those two, I've
never been really sure.

Do we have references? A Russian dictionary? A Russian on the
list? <g>

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:52:21 -0500

From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>

Or perhaps a Russian bible *g*

> I think the general concensus is that the word does mean
> "wormwood," but I would like to be certain. I didn't question it
> when I first saw it, but since that discussion between those two, I've
> never been really sure.
>
> Do we have references? A Russian dictionary? A Russian on the
> list? <g>
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Zech/Rev Horses
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:55:03 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

> > I think these 4 horses correlate to the ones in Zechariah 6:1-8
> > where an angel explains that "These are the four spirits of the
> > heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the
> > earth." Another interesting thing about the Zechariah horses is
> > that they go in specific directions with the white ones going
> > north.
>
> That is interesting. How do you interpret the northerly direction? I
> mean what significance do you find in that?

Let me first say that I do believe that scripture explains scripture
and the only thing that comes close to the 4 horses in Revelation
6:1-8 are the four chariots/horses in Zechariah 6:1-8 (even the
numbering of the chapters and verses seems to jibe). This is just a
skeleton explanation and needs some fleshing out, but here goes:

Zech 6:1-8 has 4 chariots with the horses IN them (this has to be one
of the funniest sights in scripture--horses inside instead of pulling
the chariots) in this order:

1. red
2. black
3. white
4a. grisled (spotted, marked) and
4b. bay (dappled [spotted with different colors], piebald [of
      different colors; esp: spotted or blotched with black and
      white])

It doesn't say how many horses are in each chariot.

Revelation 6:1-8 horses--just one horse:

1. white
2. red
3. black
4. pale (green, sickly) marked with leprosy? This horse has two
people connected with it--Death and Hell (grisled and bay?)

  [another thing I've been kicking around is the fact that this horse
  is green and it's going to go either south or to and fro through
  the earth (see below). Green seems to be the predominant color in
  the Middle East (and Greenpeace and the greenies trying to fix
  the environment). Hamas waves green flags, the flags of the world
  with green in them include: Egypt, Ethiopia, India, Iran, Iraq,
  Ireland, Italy, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Mexico, Nigeria,
  Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Wales.]

Zechariah explains where the horses in their chariots go:

1. black into north country

  [3rd seal, black horse; "and he that sat on him had a pair of
  balances in his hand...A measure of wheat for a penny, and
  three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt
  not the oil and the wine.] Are we seeing this in Russia today?

2. white go into north country after the black

  [1st seal; "he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given
  unto him: and he went forth conquering and to conquer.]

3. grisled go into the south
4. bay go to and fro through the earth

  [#3 and 4 constitute the 4th seal, pale horse "and his name that
  sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power
  was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with
  sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts
  of the earth.]

5. red are not given a specific direction

  [2nd seal; "and power was given to him that sat thereon to take
  peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and
  there was given unto him a great sword.] The bay seem to
  actually be pacing back and forth while the red here just seem
  to be everywhere all the time?

I don't have any ideas why the order of the horses is different
all the time.

Zechariah ends with:

"Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that
go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north
country."

Why aren't the other directions mentioned? I have no clues. Any
ideas?

Bye,
Moza

BTW, I'd like to hear more about that Matthew 24, Revelation seals,
Revelation churches connection.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Zech/Rev Horses
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:40:23 -0500

From: owner-bpr@philologos.org

Moza wrote:

> 1. black into north country
>
> [3rd seal, black horse; "and he that sat on him had a pair of
> balances in his hand...A measure of wheat for a penny, and
> three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt
> not the oil and the wine.] Are we seeing this in Russia today?

Hmm... very interesting.

> "Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go
> toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country."
>
> Why aren't the other directions mentioned? I have no clues. Any
> ideas?

I gots to let this gel a while <g>. Extremely interesting insights,
however Moza. Taking all this into consideration, do you feel that
the seals (or even the horses/spirits of Zechariah) is an ongoing
thing? In other words, there is no one specific day that we will be
able to pin to the opening of the first seal and others to follow? For
example, no one will be able to say "Oh yeah, on Sep 25, 1999,
seal number one was opened, etc." (This may tie into Ed's recent
message about the beginning/ending date of the 70 weeks, which I
haven't had a chance to mull over yet.)

> BTW, I'd like to hear more about that Matthew 24, Revelation seals,
> Revelation churches connection.

okey dokey.. in another message soon to follow.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Zech/Rev Horses
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:18:16 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

> From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>
>
> Zechariah ends with:
>
> "Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that
> go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north
> country."
>
> Why aren't the other directions mentioned? I have no clues. Any
> ideas?

From Donna: <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Well, I will give it a shot, Moza. I looked up the phrase
"quieted my spirit" in Strong's and Thayer's and what I got from it
was that it meant literally to "put it to sleep". (I'm no language
scholar so don't jump on me if you disagree.)

--------
5117 nuwach (noo'-akh); a primitive root; to rest, i.e. settle
down; used in a great variety of applications, literal and
figurative, intransitive, transitive and causative (to dwell, stay,
let fall, place, let alone, withdraw, give comfort, etc.): KJV--
cease, be confederate, lay, let down, (be) quiet, remain, (cause to,
be at, give, have, make to) rest, set down. Compare 3241.

3241 Yaniym (yaw-neem'); from 5123; asleep; Janim, a place in
Palestine: -Janum [from the margin].
--------

While I know the black horse represents famine, I don't interpret it
to mean a famine of food necessarily. The phrase corn, wine and
oil abounds in the minor prophets (which are all end-time related
books) and as I mailed you earlier, I think they have a symbolic
meaning as follows:

--------
corn = any plantable seed, used interchangeably with wheat and
barley ... symbolic of the knowledge of Word of God that we spread
by planting seeds in the soil of people's minds (recall the Parable
of the Sower Sowing Seed)

wine = real understanding of the Word ... remember the new wine in
old skins analogy

oil = the presence of the Holy Spirit
--------

Since I know from Amos 8:11 that the end-times famine of our Father
is NOT for bread and wine but a famine for the Word of God ... I
suggest that the black horse is not removing FOOD but the Word of
God out of the north country.

Followed closely by the white horse, which you have indicated (and I
agree with) is AC ... I think it is deception that the white horse
brings. If you have a scarcity of real truth then deception can
flourish. What does AC want to conquer ? He wants to steal the
inheritance from God's true children and the throne from God.
That's what he has been after from day one.

--------
Amos 8:11
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a
famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the LORD:
(KJV)
--------

As for the north country ... I wonder sometimes if we don't need to
look back to God's chosen people for understanding of that. It was
no accident that the tribes of Israel were divided up into two
kingdoms ... one northern and one southern. Perhaps you will not
find meaning in this but I do since I believe that the northern
kingdom was scattered all over the world as a result of their
captivity and lost their national identity and yet God recovered
them by drawing them back into the fold as the primarily Christian
nations.

So when Zechariah says that the black and white horses are sent to
the north country, I believe he is telling us that there will be a
Famine for the true teaching of the Word of God and that as a result
Deception will abound amongst the Christian nations.

These are called the "lost tribes" by some. I prefer to think of
them as hidden, myself. If you look at the word for north and then
follow it back to it's root you can see a clear relationship to
something "hidden".

--------
THE NORTH
6828 tsaphown (tsaw-fone'); or tsaphon (tsaw-fone'); from 6845;
properly, hidden, i.e. dark; used only of the north as a quarter
(gloomy and unknown): KJV-- north (-ern, side, -ward, wind).

6845 tsaphan (tsaw-fan'); a primitive root; to hide (by covering
over); by implication, to hoard or reserve; figuratively to deny;
specifically (favorably) to protect, (unfavorably) to lurk: KJV--
esteem, hide (-den oneself,), lay up, lurk (be set) privily, (keep)
secret (-ly, place). ***. tsaphon. See 6828.
--------

Perhaps the other directions are not mentioned because they are of
lesser importance to God as the people's they deal with are not his
"chosen ones".

Just a thought.

Donna

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Zech/Rev Horses
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:42:47 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Oh yeah ... I forgot to mention that you should take note that that
the four beasts are told not to hurt the oil and the wine. Using
my suggested symbolic meanings then you would find that they are
told not to bother those that have real understanding of God's Word
and the presence of the Holy Spirit. Famine of the Word and
Deception can't really hurt one of God's spirit-filled,
knowledgeable children because we carry it with us.

Rev 6:6
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure
of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and
see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (KJV)

This should also cause you to think of the Parable of the 10 virgins
... all 10 waiting for the bridgegroom to come ... this means they
KNEW the bridegroom was coming and so they were religious folk
waiting for him. Some took just a little oil and missed out
because they had to go "buy" some (and from whom?) ... some took
enough oil to keep their lamps burning through the night and they
went with the bridegroom to the wedding. What oil was required ?
The Holy Spirit. He's the only protection we have from deception
and lack of teaching.

It reminds me of something else but I've yet to make up my mind
whether it's related or not. I am one of those that believes that
the Mark of the Beast is spiritual rather than physical. Since we
just talked about the Famine being for the Word of God rather than
food what do you bet that the "buying and selling" related to the
Mark of the Beast is the buying and selling of corn, wine and oil
... who're ya buying it from ? Satan's peddling deception ... it
sure can "look" like the real thing but it won't burn in the lamp.
 
Just some random thoughts.

Donna

BPR wrote:
>
> From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>
>
> > From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>
> >
> > Zechariah ends with:
> >
> > "Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that
> > go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north
> > country."
> >
> > Why aren't the other directions mentioned? I have no clues. Any
> > ideas?

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Zech/Rev Horses
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:51:27 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Hey,

> Taking all this into consideration, do you feel that
> the seals (or even the horses/spirits of Zechariah) is an ongoing
> thing? In other words, there is no one specific day that we will be
> able to pin to the opening of the first seal and others to follow? For
> example, no one will be able to say "Oh yeah, on Sep 25, 1999,
> seal number one was opened, etc." (This may tie into Ed's recent
> message about the beginning/ending date of the 70 weeks, which I
> haven't had a chance to mull over yet.)

Yeah, I guess they are just too general to be able to pick a certain
day and say, "yup, that's when it started." Except, of course, for
the 70th week which has a covenant which is the marker. I don't
necessarily think that they both encompass the exact same time frame.

Bye,
Moza

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: BPR List - The Fourth Seal
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:49:15 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi Everybody,

The following some excerpts from a talk I gave at a prayer meeting in
October, 1997. It's basic message is that the plagues and such under the
fourth seal are God's standard judgements against a rebellious Israel and
why He dealt so strongly with them: idolatry. This seal I believe comes
right after the midpoint in tribulation where Anti-Christ sets up his idol
in the temple and apostate Israel follows after him. God then begins these
four standard judgements found in the Old Testament.

PRAYER MEETING - OCTOBER 30TH, 1997

THE SEVEN SEALS

Tonight we want to look at the fourth seal of Revelation, but we want to see
it in the Old Testament as it pertains to the Mosaic and Abrahamic
Covenants. So often we hear teaching of WHAT the seals mean concerning their
content, but what we want to establish is WHY they exist in the first place.
I believe this talk will help us to see that God did not just give
Revelation to His people in any random fashion, but that the understanding
of these seals are firmly based in the Old Testament covenants. Though we
have heard teachings on these at other times, this talk will take a lot of
the guesswork out of understanding the seals. I will be reading a lot of
Scripture, so gird your minds to listen attentively to these as they are
read, because they will be describing what will be forthcoming in Israel.
Picture the events described in these Scriptures as being true of events in
Israel's Day of Jacob's Trouble and know why God allows the events contained
in these seals to come upon Israel. God just doesn't let such events as
described in Revelation come upon His people for no good reason. We must
also keep in mind that the Book of Revelation deals primarily with Israel in
the last days, with the opening of the book or scroll Daniel sealed in
Daniel 12. Daniel 9:24 says,

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY
CITY, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The following comes UPON THE HOLY PEOPLE AND UPON JERUSALEM, and these are
the purposes of all that happens to Israel in Revelation:

FINISH TRANSGRESSION: rebellion, apostasy

MAKE AN END OF SINS: missing the mark

RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY: that which is done to deal with sin so that
forgiveness and reconciliation can take place

ESTABLISH EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS: the vanishing point of sin and the
point where righteousness reigns

SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY: put a total, final end to all vision and prophecy

ANOINT THE MOST HOLY (meaning, the sanctuary): re-consecration of the
temple's Holy of Holies: Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand
and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Seventy weeks have been determined for these things, meaning the tribulation
period is included in bringing all of these things to completion, and that
is done partly through the seven seals being opened. We want to look at
these seals as having their foundation in the Old Testament.

THE REASON FOR GOD'S JUDGEMENTS

Remembering the fourth seal, I want to begin by reading

Deut 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD
your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the
likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

Moses warns Israel to not "forget the covenant" of the Lord their God,
meaning the Law given at Sinai, by making an image.

Deut 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. 25
When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have
remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven
image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the
LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

Moses warns that if they corrupt themselves through the making of an image,
they will face the anger of God because that is an abomination to Him.

Deut 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye
shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to
possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be
destroyed.

Expulsion from their land and the utter destruction of their land is
promised them for such an abomination.

Deut 4:27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be
left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

Moses said the Lord will scatter them after their land is destroyed, and
they will be reduced in numbers, with the Lord hoping to bring them to
repentance:

Deut 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and
stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But if from
thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek
him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

When they come to serving other gods, Moses still gives them hope, saying
that when and if they are in such a condition, God will still take them back
if they repent and return to Him with all their being.

Deut 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon
thee, EVEN IN THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt
be obedient unto his voice;

In other words, the cause of tribulation coming upon Israel is because of
forgetting their covenant with God and making an image and worshiping it,
but it is in the resulting tribulation that restoration will come when they
return to Him in repentance, EVEN IN THE LATTER DAYS.

SEAL FOUR - SWORD, HUNGER, DEATH, BEASTS

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the
fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and
his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power
was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, TO KILL WITH SWORD,
AND WITH HUNGER, AND WITH DEATH, AND WITH THE BEASTS OF THE EARTH.

The first four seals show a progressive deterioration in Israel as events
draw near to the middle of the Daniel's 70th week. The fourth seal primarily
consists of judgements of death by the sword, by hunger, meaning famine, and
the wild beasts of the earth, and we want to see them as pertaining to
Israel, though the whole world will be affected by the antichrist.

These curses - sword, death, famine, economic hardship, pestilence, wild
beasts, - were brought against Israel WHENEVER THEY FORSOOK GOD'S COVENANT.
It is when the image is set up by the antichrist that God will bring these
punishments against Israel and Jerusalem. These are represented in the third
and fourth seals of Chapter 6 in the Book of Revelation.

THE SEALS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT - LEVITICUS 26

I now want to read from Leviticus 26, and these verses deal with the curses
for Old Testament Israel's APOSTASY (following the lies of the antichrist)
AND THEIR CONTEMPT FOR THE LAW AS A NATION (the setting up of the idol).
These verses are the basis for the plagues that come against Israel in the
Latter Days.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a
standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to
bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

The abomination of desolation, the image, is set up by the antichrist in the
middle of tribulation, and WILL BE CONDONED BY APOSTATE ISRAEL, while a
remnant will understand it is the reason for the curses that then come upon
their nation:

Dan 11:30 . . . he (the antichrist) shall be grieved, . . . and have
indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return,
and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31 . . . and
they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily
sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And
such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but
the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

There are Jews who will do wickedly against the covenant. This is the
breaking of God's Mosaic covenant concerning the making of images and the
reason for the curses that come upon it as Moses had stated:

Ex 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God,
which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of
bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make
unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven
above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the
earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the
LORD. 3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

The idol is set up in the sanctuary, and God's commandments are broken. But
look at what God says He will do if Israel keeps His commandments, if they
don't allow an idol in their sanctuary, if they honor His sanctuary. He says,

Lev 26:4 I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her
increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

But the Third Seal speaks not of an increase in wheat and barley and the
tree of the field, but a decrease in them, making food very expensive
because Israel will break God's covenant.

Lev 26:5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage
shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full,
and dwell in your land safely.

The Third Seal speaks of a shortage of grain to make bread, not an abundance
where it is eaten to the full. It speaks of war, not of dwelling in the land
in safety, and it speaks of these because the covenant was not kept but
broken.

Lev 26:6 And I will give peace in the land (4th seal), and ye shall lie
down, and none shall make you afraid (4th seal): and I will rid evil beasts
out of the land (4th seal), neither shall the sword go through your land
(4th seal). 7 And ye shall chase your enemies (dispersion), and they shall
fall before you by the sword. 8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and
an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall
fall before you by the sword.

The Fourth Seal speaks of death and wild beasts and a sword. Instead of
Israel's enemies falling by the sword, Israel itself falls by the sword.

Lev 26:9 And I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and
multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

Instead of multiplying Israel, Israel is decreased through all of these
plagues in Revelation, and God's covenant is not established with them until
He satisfies His wrath and because of the faithfulness of the remnant.

Lev 26:10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the
new. 11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor
you.

But, again, instead of the blessing, Israel will experience the curse
because God's Tabernacle is not set up in their midst, but torn down,
desecrated and made desolate after it is restored during the first half of
the Tribulation.

ANOTHER SHALL RULE THEM

Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be
my people.

God says He will walk among them if they obey His commandments, and they
would be His people, but instead He comes to them in plagues and wrath and
places them UNDER ANOTHER'S RULE:

Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of
Egypt, that YE SHOULD NOT BE THEIR BONDMEN; and I have broken the bands of
your yoke, and made you go upright. 14 But if ye will not hearken unto me,
and will not do all these commandments; 15 And if ye shall despise my
statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my
commandments, but that ye break my covenant: 16 I also will do this unto
you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague,
that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow
your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 And I will set my face
against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: THEY THAT HATE YOU
SHALL REIGN OVER YOU; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

If Israel gave herself up to ungodliness, then God would appoint over them
"terror," a general notion particularized in verses 16 and 17 by disease,
famine and defeat, but also those that hate them would rule over them. In
the latter days, that will be the antichrist.

Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will
punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 And I will break the pride of
your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

These plagues escalate from the mid-point of the tribulation until Israel's
power is finally broken because they refuse to repent, a non-repentance
Revelation speaks of. God says, "I will break the pride of your power."
Remember what Daniel heard: "and when he shall have accomplished to scatter
the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished" (Daniel
12:7). This verse in Daniel very aptly describes the curses of Leviticus 26
for breaking the covenant. And Moses goes on from here in very descriptive
language what is related in the third and fourth seals:

Lev 26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not
yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits
[part of the famine of the 3rd seal]. 21 And if ye walk contrary unto me,
and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you
according to your sins [notice the escalation of tribulation by the use of
the phrase, "I will bring seven times more plagues."]. 22 I will also send
wild beasts among you [part of the 4th seal], which shall rob you of your
children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number [reduction in
numbers]; and your high ways shall be desolate [desolation - another part of
the Revelation judgements]. 23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these
things, but will walk contrary unto me; 24 Then will I also walk contrary
unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. 25 And I will
bring a sword upon you [part of the 4th seal judgements], that shall avenge
the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your
cities, I will send the pestilence among you [part of the 4th seal]; and ye
shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy [part of the Revelation
judgements]. 26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread [part of the
3rd seal judgement], ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they
shall deliver you your bread again by weight [the balance of the third
seal]: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied [not eat their bread to the
full]. 27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary
unto me; 28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I,
will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 And ye shall eat the flesh
of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30 And I will
destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases
upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you [complements
the 6th seal]. 31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your
sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet
odours. [This is exactly what will happen during the Tribulation: the
sanctuary will be made desolate and the sacrifices will be stopped, but it
more refers to the altar of incense, the coals of which the high priest
would put in a censor as a sweet odor to the Lord when he went into the Holy
of Holies. This complements the 7th seal]. 32 And I will bring the land into
desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it
[again, this is what happens in the tribulation]. 33 And I will scatter you
among the heathen [spoken of in Matthew 24 and Daniel], and will draw out a
sword after you [found under the 4th seal]: and your land shall be desolate,
and your cities waste [more judgement of the seals and Daniel's prophecy;
Armageddon].

These judgements in Leviticus are described in four leading features: (1)
the idolatrous abominations were to be overthrown (verse 30); (2) the towns
and sanctuaries were to be destroyed (verse 31); (3) the land was to be
devastated (verse 32); (4) and the people were to be dispersed among the
heathen (verse 33). God, in verse 33, says He will draw out a sword after
them, that is, He will drive them away with a drawn sword, and scatter them
to all the winds of heaven. But God, after these judgements, looks for
Israel's reaction to them to bring repentance:

THE REMNANT

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their
fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also
they have walked contrary unto me; 41 And that I also have walked contrary
unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then
their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the
punishment of their iniquity:

The Seals of the Tribulation are meant to bring Israel to repentance, and
THIS REPENTANCE IS WHAT BRINGS ABOUT THE REMNANT. And the reason God
attempts to lead them to repentance is because He will remember His covenant
with Abraham and the land that He promised He would give to his descendents:

Lev 26:42 THEN WILL I REMEMBER MY COVENANT WITH JACOB, AND ALSO MY COVENANT
WITH ISAAC, AND ALSO MY COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM WILL I REMEMBER; AND I WILL
REMEMBER THE LAND. 43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy
her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept
of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my
judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes. 44 And yet for all
that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away,
neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant
with them: for I am the LORD their God. 45 BUT I WILL FOR THEIR SAKES
REMEMBER THE COVENANT OF THEIR ANCESTORS, WHOM I BROUGHT FORTH OUT OF THE
LAND OF EGYPT IN THE SIGHT OF THE HEATHEN, THAT I MIGHT BE THEIR GOD: I am
the LORD. 46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD
made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of
Moses.

Upon repentance and obedience God would renew again the Abrahamic Covenant
and gather them again out of the heathen and adopt them as His nation. This,
of course, will be totally fulfilled by Jesus in His return when, because of
the Abrahamic Covenant, all nations of the world will be blessed as He
fulfills that Covenant. This is what the coming of Christ fulfills: The
Abrahamic Covenant. God will fulfill the land covenant made with Abraham,
that he and his descendants inherit the land of Canaan. It was because of
the Abrahamic Covenant that God delivered Israel from Egypt, and it is why
He will gather the remnant at His second coming:

Ex 3:24 And God heard their groaning [in Egypt], and God remembered his
covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon
the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

God had delivered Israel from Egypt because He remembered the covenant He
made with Abraham to give them a land, and He will remember Israel again in
a few short years because of that same covenant, and again divide the land
amongst Israel. This is what the remnant is about between the six and
seventh seal. Joshua 18 describes the dividing of the land of Canaan among
the tribes of Israel. There are further descriptions of the land by tribes
in Ezekiel 45 and 48. Ezekiel describes the end times at the end of his
prophecies, and the book ends with these verses:

29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel
for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD. 30 And
these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and
five hundred measures. 31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names
of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate
of Judah, one gate of Levi. 32 And at the east side four thousand and five
hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one
gate of Dan. 33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred
measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one
gate of Zebulun. 34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with
their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city
from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

In other words, what we are speaking of here in the seals is a Jewish
remnant that inherits the land through the fulfillment of the Abrahamic
covenant. Ezekiel says the same thing about the dividing of the Promised
Land in Israel and prefigures a remnant that comes out from the plagues into
the Kingdom of God. In Ezekiel 14, it says,

Ezekiel 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13 Son of man,
when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I
stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread
thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from
it [evidences of the third and fourth seal]: 14 Though these three men,
Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls
by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. 15 If I cause noisome beasts to
pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no
man may pass through because of the beasts: 16 Though these three men were
in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor
daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17
Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land;
so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18 Though these three men were in
it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor
daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. 19 Or if I send a
pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off
from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I
live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they
shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. 21 For thus saith
the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon
Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the
pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? 22 Yet, behold, THEREIN SHALL
BE LEFT A REMNANT THAT SHALL BE BROUGHT FORTH, both sons and daughters:
behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their
doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought
upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they
shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall
know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith
the Lord GOD.

Like I said at the beginning of this week's talk, God isn't just doing
things randomly during the Tribulation. But He is acting according to His
covenants. The purpose of these judgements in Ezekiel is to make the land
desolate, to cut off from it man and beast because Israel as a nation sinned
against him (14:13), but out of it would come a remnant (v. 14), symbolized
by Noah (preacher of righteousness), Daniel (prophet of end time events) and
Job (suffering and restoration because of God's faithfuleness), which is in
line with the remnant 144,000 in Revelation 14.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: BPR List - The Fourth Seal
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:37:59 -0500

From: "\"BANDS\"" <bandsrpt@uswest.net>

To Ed, and the list:

Just returned from a four hour, six mile hike to the top of the Sandia Mountains
(10,500 feet in altitude), and I may be suffering from lack of oxygen, I hope
not.

Ed, are you saying that the Seven Seals mentioned in Revelation 6 relate only to
Israel?

If so, please advise, I have some questions.

BANDS

BPR wrote:

> From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
>
> Hi Everybody,
>
> The following some excerpts from a talk I gave at a prayer meeting in
> October, 1997. It's basic message is that the plagues and such under the
> fourth seal are God's standard judgements against a rebellious Israel and
> why He dealt so strongly with them: idolatry. This seal I believe comes
> right after the midpoint in tribulation where Anti-Christ sets up his idol
> in the temple and apostate Israel follows after him. God then begins these
> four standard judgements found in the Old Testament.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: BPR List - The Fourth Seal
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:27:44 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi Bands,

The Book of Daniel says that these things, the things he was seeing,
concerned God's people, Israel:

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy
people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

I believe that Revelation is an opening of that book which Daniel sealed:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to
the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be
increased.

Therefore, I believe after Chapter 4 of Revelation the seals deal MAINLY
with "what shall befall thy people in the latter days." That is not to say
that there will be no effects on the world from what Revelation depicts, but
its MAIN EMPHASIS is what happens to Israel as the Lord brings His 6,000
year plan to completion, including the uniting all who are His into one
people at the coming of Christ, who was predestined to be the head of all
things. Many are trying to accomplish this now without His bodily, visible
presence, but that is the delusion God has sent for those who will not love
the truth and so be saved.

If I could add a little commentary on where I am coming from. I believe in
Daniel and Revelation is God dealing with Israel, but that does not mean
other nations may not be affected by that and even suffer some of these same
plagues. There are description of that in Revelation. He is calling the
world to repent, but what His primary intention is is to fulfill His Old
Testament covenants through a remnant believing on Christ when they see Him
descend. I think that this is reasonable according to the verses I shared.
So often we rape our minds and do mental gymnastics and play "stretch the
Scriptures" to bring to ourselves revelation, when the word of God is quite
capable of treating our minds to the point of renewing them according to
what is God's heart, mind and intentions. It takes effort to search the
scriptures and there are many who want easy answers, but in view of the 20
or 30 interpretations on the Internet, I would say we're having trouble
seeing any easy answers. If things are logical according to the Scriptures,
they deserve consideration. If not they don't. I have seen sooooooo many
interpretations of these end times scenarios that it made my head spin, and
I came to a point where I decided His word is sufficient and the Holy Spirit
is in us to reveal the sufficiency of it. If not, then He is not the God He
said He was and His Spirit is not doing what He said He would do. There are
enough of those kinds of "gods" around today, both in the natural and the
spiritual realm. My God says if they speak not according to this word, there
is no light in them. He said that because he honors only His word, but He
does not honor His word after we are done running it through our mental
gymnatics to satisfy our own lust to know the unknown because of our
spiritual ambition. That does not negate some freeedom for discussion and
considerations around the Scriptures, but in the end His word is our way to
us retaining our sanity and a sound mind.

This is pretty much what I've learned over the years, but I've also learned
we've got to give people room to reach these same conclusions: His word is
sufficient.

Ed

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: BPR List - The Fourth Seal
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:08:41 -0800

From: Wight <wight@alaska.net>

My preacher was just discussing this subject in regards to revelation. He
said when reading revelation, there will be many things in there we don't
understand. He said not to concentrate on the things we don't understand,
but to focus on the passages in which God is speaking to us. We spend too
much time in Scripture trying to "figure out" the confusing parts instead
of learning and letting God speak to us from the passages we already
know/understand. God will reveal to us that which He needs for us to know.
Shelley

>This is pretty much what I've learned over the years, but I've also learned
>we've got to give people room to reach these same conclusions: His word is
>sufficient.
>
>Ed

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: The First and Last Day of the 70th Week?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:48:17 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi Everybody,

I am looking for input on the first and last day of Daniel's 70th week. That
in turn will reveal what the day is that marks the midpoint of the the week.

First off, these are not to be relied upon but are looking at the various
feasts or fast days to determine my request in the first paragrpah.

Second, the chart found at
http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/Private/xEndScenario1.gif is based on the Day of
Atonement as the first day of the week. In that chart, the date Bul 9th or
10th is when Solomon finished the temple in his day. The Scriptures do no
give, as far as I can see, these dates, but it does give this month. The
dates are my assumption and cannot be relied upon. With no date mentioned,
there was some flexability here to assume the date.

As you will see, the rapture in this scenario would occur 10 days before the
end of the Daniel's 70th week.

Third, the second set of charts at
http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/Private/Daniel.htm are not of my making. I found
them elsewhere, but I did make some alterations to them, tough they were
minor adjustments. These charts are based on the thought that Daniel's 70th
week begings on a Passover, and the commentary will tell you how the other
feasts possibly align with that.

I am only looking for input and am searching to establish a specific day
that the week begins. I am also investigating the Pre-Wrath rapture, though
I am a Posttribulationist. I have a problem with the rapture occuring 6
months to a 1-1/2 before the end of the week. I would rather not dicuss
that, though at great length, but am interested in hearing input on what I
have requested above.

These are not public pages, but the Private ones I use for research. Thanks
in advance to anyone who can add to what I've posted, or input on other
feasts that may be the beginning of the 70th week.

Ed

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The First and Last Day of the 70th Week?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:43:09 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi guys...

> From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
>
> Hi Everybody,
>
> I am looking for input on the first and last day of Daniel's 70th week.
> That in turn will reveal what the day is that marks the midpoint of the
> the week.

Ed, I finally got a chance to look at the charts you mentioned. I
wonder if we could possibly talk about this on the list for a while.

In your question above, do you feel that the beginning of the 70th
week is necessarily a feast day? We know that the signing of a
covenant between the anti-Christ and Israel will mark the beginning,
but you feel that particular day will be an "appointed time" so to
speak? If so, I'm curious as to your thoughts on this.

> Third, the second set of charts at
> http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/Private/Daniel.htm are not of my
> making. I found them elsewhere, but I did make some alterations to
> them, tough they were minor adjustments. These charts are based on
> the thought that Daniel's 70th week begings on a Passover, and the
> commentary will tell you how the other feasts possibly align with
> that.

In the daniel chart you mentioned, where the author suggested the
beginning of the 70th week could occur on Passover, I have a
tendency to disagree with that if only for the reason that the Festival
of Passover (including the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened
Bread, and the Feast of the Firstfruits) has already been fulfilled. I
feel the Feast of Weeks has as well. So that just leaves three
feasts as possibilities IMO: 1. Feast of Trumpets -- 2. Day of Atonement --
3. Feast of Tabernacles.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Correction
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:22:04 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi Everybody,

I realize a major error in the one chart xEndSxcenario.htm. Disregard it, as
I used the month of Bul following Tishri, when it really follows Nisan.
This may give some insight into the other set of charts though.

Ed

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: aaaaarrrggghhhhhh Correction again.
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:25:51 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Disregard the last correction. You can see why I need help <G>.
The temple foundaiton was laid in the month of Bull and it was completed
in the month of Zif, soi the chart is okay. I wonder if I am at this point
- argh.

Ed

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Matt 24/Letters/Seals
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:03:35 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Ok Moza... here are some of my thoughts concerning the
parallelism or connections between Matthew 24, the Letters to the
Churches, and the Seven Seals. This is still in the "gel" stage as
these are just random thoughts or ideas. <g>

I have already mentioned the similarities between the Jesus' first
statement in Matt 24, the first letter to Ephesus, and the first seal.

Now the Second Seal:

The very next, or second, thing Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse
is found in Matt 24:6. He said there would be wars and to not be
troubled by these things. He is warning the disciples of what is to
come. He is preparing them mentally.

In the second letter to the church of Smryna, they have already
experienced some tribulation, but they are further told that they will
be cast into prison and face death. They are also told however to
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer..." (Rev 2:10)

The Second Seal is war. Again the order parallels Matt 24 and
the Letters to the Church perfectly. We first had warning, then
physical and mental preparation, and then the "real" thing in the
second seal. The ultimate test so to speak.

-------------

The third seal deals with famine. In Matt 24, we are told of
famine, but also the third letter to the church deals with the topic
of food. The Church of Pergamos was associated with the
doctrine of Balaam, which dealt with the eating of food that had
been sacrificed to idols. (Rev 2:14) But to him that overcomes,
Christ will give them "hidden manna." It's an interesting lesson
that I can draw from this. Don't sacrifice your morals, don't sell
yourself out, don't deny God under any circumstances --- even
when your hungry and starving to death. Hold out and God will
feed you with His manna.

------------

Seal Four is Death and Hell. I'm not real sure how to interpret this
one as far as my study in parallelism goes. Seal four seems to be
a climatic point of the first four seals and may indicate the
Abomination of Desolation. Death and Hell to those that follow
after the anti-Christ. In letter four we have the false teaching of
Jezebel and the Church of Thyatira is warned of committing
"adultery" with her and is warned of the "depths of Satan." This
is of course spiritual adultery. If they commit such an act with her,
then "I will kill her children with death..." (Rev 2:23). Letter four is
one of the longest letters and seems very "intense" to me when
compared to the first three. It also mostly centers on evil and
Satan.

------------

Seal Five is martyrdom with the souls under the altar and the
giving of white garments. Letter five to the Church of Sardis is
beautiful in this parallelism study. Sardis has a few people that
haven't soiled their garments:

(Rev 3:4-5) Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have
not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for
they are worthy. {5} He that overcometh, the same shall be
clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the
book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and
before his angels.

I'm not sure how Seal five and Letter five relate to Matt 24 in this
comparison. Unless you take verse 24:18 ..." Neither let him
which is in the field return back to take his clothes..." Stretching
it a bit, huh? <g>

----------

Seal Six in my viewpoint is the "sign" of the coming of Christ.

(Rev 6:12-13) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,
and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black
as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; {13} And
the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth
her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This compares to Mat 24:29 -- "Immediately after the tribulation of
those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers
of the heavens shall be shaken."

So the Sixth Letter should have something to say about His
coming if my parallelism holds true. It does <g> ...

(Rev 3:10-11) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I
also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come
upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. {11}
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no
man take thy crown.

(As a side note.... Rev 3:10 is an extremely important verse that
we should look at sometime. The timing, according to my thinking
and belief of the rapture occuring shortly after the sixth seal, is
IMHO, strengthened by the placement of this message to the
church of Philadelphia in this sixth letter.)

--------------

Seal Seven is an awesome scene. Judgment is about to occur.
IMO, the rapture has occurred and those left behind are about to
experience God's wrath. Matt 24 doesn't directly deal with the
events of the seventh seal, which is fitting since the disciples
asked Jesus what was the sign of His coming. Jesus' talk then
ends after he tells them what the sign is, and therefore he doesn't
go into the seventh seal. The seventh letter to the Church of
Laodicea was told that they made God sick. He had "spit" them
out of His mouth. Is it too late for the Laodiceans.. do they get a
second chance? They are told that "as many as I love, I rebuke
and chasten..." (Rev 3:19). Judgment is about to occur with the
opening of the seventh seal. ??

I have still have more "gelling" to do on the topic, but that's it
basically. Not well written, but I hope you see some of the
parallels that I find interesting between the different passages.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: (Fwd) Weekly Analysis -- September 21, 1998
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:17:05 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

[Moderator's note: This is a very long article, but oh so informative.
Something to watch for this week.]

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
September 21, 1998

Impeachment, Japan, and a Hunger for Crisis

President Clinton is running out of room to maneuver. Forty-six
percent of respondents to a poll published in the current issue of
Newsweek think that Clinton should consider resigning. Over 60
percent want public censure, an unprecedented step. Less than a
third want Clinton to remain in office without any punishment. We
have reached an extreme point, where Clinton must regard those
who favor censure but not impeachment to be among his strongest
supporters. When you are counting among your supporters those
who are calling for your public humiliation, it is time to reexamine
your options. Clinton is running out of them, but he has one big one
left: foreign policy, particularly the international financial crisis.

This week, the Asian economic meltdown and the impeachment
debate are converging, creating a crisis and an opportunity. The
crisis: On Monday, Clinton's videotaped grand jury testimony will be
made public. This will, in all likelihood, intensify pressure on the
president, because the Republicans would not be releasing the
testimony so eagerly if it were not harmful to Clinton. The
opportunity: On Tuesday, Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi will
be meeting with Clinton.

At this point, Clinton's defense has been reduced to three
arguments. First, while it is true that he lied in essence, he is
arguing that he did not lie in the narrowly legal sense of the term.
Because he did not break the law, he should not be impeached.
Second, his supporters are arguing that even if he did lie under
oath, it was a lie about sex. Sex is a private matter and lying about
such matters is common and natural. Therefore, lying under oath
about private sexual matters is understandable and does not
constitute a sufficiently grave offense as to justify impeachment.
Clinton's final line of defense is the most important: Even if he did
violate the law, this argument goes, he is doing such a splendid job
in all other respects that no reasonable person should want to see
him removed from office.

This last line of defense depends on public perception, and is
reflected in his job approval rating in the polls. Clinton has used his
job approval rating as the ultimate argument against impeachment.
Therefore, maintaining the job approval rating has become mission
critical to his presidency. Now, it is possible to argue that he is
doing a good job as president, but that he should still be impeached
if he breaks the law, and this view is gradually being manifested in
the polls. However, should his job approval rating decline
dramatically, then all would be lost. Clinton must continue to be
seen as doing a good job. Thus, the key question is this: What
constitutes doing a good job?

"It's the economy, stupid." This has been his strength. It is now
potentially a catastrophic weakness. There appears to be an
international economic crisis of epic proportions that seems to be
affecting the U.S. economy. The U.S. stock markets have been
sharply hit of late. A cyclical downturn is overdue, at least in the
simple sense of the length of the current economic expansion.
Clinton does not appear to have a policy for dealing with this.

Now, such a downturn may not be due to Asia and it may not be
under Clinton's control, and the worst solution of all may be a
Washington-generated policy trying to solve the world's economic
problems. But Clinton's problem is that he who lives by myth, dies
by myth. Having unfairly taken credit for America's economic well-
being, he will now unfairly be blamed for America's economic
problems. Inevitably, economic and market weakness will eat into
his ratings, collapsing his last line of defense. Thus, the pressure to
appear to be doing something decisive about the economy is
growing irresistible to a man not known for his ability to resist
temptation.

Enter Japan's Prime Minister Obuchi, fresh from his country's latest
failure to create a workable solution to its economic crisis. After
weeks of trying to pass legislation for dealing with the mass of bad
debts accumulated by the Japanese banking system, itself merely a
symptom of much deeper problems, the Diet finally passed a bill last
Friday. Like all of its predecessors, the bill was designed to give the
appearance of action rather than to constitute action. It was
designed to avoid contact with reality rather than to grapple with it.

Even accepting the fact that Japanese politics have become as
bankrupt and gridlocked as the Japanese economy, the Diet's
actions were breathtaking. On the eve of a critical summit with the
U.S., the Diet knowingly produced a bill that would demonstrate not
Japan's intention to solve its own problems but its utter inability to do
so. Because no real pressure was exerted from any quarter and the
Japanese are not stupid, they clearly understand both what they are
doing and how it may appear to the rest of the world. And because
Japan is no longer even pretending very hard that it is doing
anything to solve the problem, we are left to wonder what the
Japanese have in mind, since we are quite sure that they have
much in mind, appearances notwithstanding.

Consider the obvious solution. Japan can force its banks to
liquidate their debts, contracting their capital base, cutting available
credit, and creating a new wave of bankruptcies. This will bring
about a dramatic restructuring of the Japanese economy, similar to
what happened in the U.S. several years ago. While this will be
incredibly painful, with unprecedented high unemployment and
interest rates, in the long run Japan will emerge stronger and more
competitive. Alternatively, the Japanese government can absorb
the bad debts, print money to cover them, and inflate its way out of
the problem. This is a much worse solution, but it is a solution. The
problem with both of these solutions is politics. It is unlikely that the
Liberal Democratic Party and the Japanese political system as
currently constituted could survive the stresses and strains implicit in
this strategy. So, Japan has a domestic solution available, but it is
extremely painful and politically unacceptable.

Therefore, Japan has decided on another strategy: Internationalize
its banking crisis. Japan is not merely avoiding action. Whether by
design or by accident, it is exporting its problems. Take, for
example, interest rates. Low interest rates reduce bankruptcies and
have their justifications, but Japan's interest rates are insane. The
10-year Japanese government bond currently carries a yield of less
that 0.7 percent (That's not "seven" percent; that's "zero-point-
seven" percent). As a result, money continues to leave Japan
while foreign investment avoids Japan like the plague.

All of this weakens the yen. Now, a weak yen helps Japan's
exports, but it also places enormous pressure on other Asian
economies. Low Japanese interest rates strike directly at China's
ability to maintain the yuan. Indeed, the Chinese have been quite
bitter at Japanese policies for their effect on China, and have been
intensifying currency controls of late in order to minimize the effect
of the yen's general weakness. Everything that Japan has done
has had the effect of increasing the strain on the international
system. That appears bizarre until you think about it.

Japan has two goals. First, it wants to get out of this economic
mess. Second, it wants to do so without making fundamental
changes to its society, economy, or political system. Any solution it
devises will require fundamental changes. If, however, Japan can
convince others to underwrite the restoration of its financial system,
it can save itself without fundamental change. The key is to
convince others that they have no choice but to absorb the cost of
bailing Japan out. That isn't easy to do. However, if the Japanese
can convince the world, and particularly the U.S., that (a) Japan is
incapable of solving its problems and (b) Japan's inability to do so
will wreck the international economic system (and America's), then
the rest of the world will have no choice but to act.

The solution would look something like this. Instead of the
Japanese government creating a new entity, similar to the
Resolution Trust Corporation that managed the collapsed savings-
and-loan system in the U.S., the IMF or a new agency funded by
international capital would buy up bad loans in Japan. This would
allow Japanese banks to restructure their balance sheets without
forcing a fundamental shift in fiscal and monetary policy in Japan.
In short, the rest of the world, mostly the U.S. with some European
help, would pay for Japanese mismanagement. Because Japan's
fabled bureaucracy would still be in place, inevitably, formal
international controls on the Japanese banking system would be
informally thwarted, leaving Japan looking much like it did before,
with foreigners carrying the burden of Japanese mismanagement.

Why would anyone agree to this? If the Japanese can convince
the world of points (a) and (b) above, then, in a massive game of
international financial chicken, the country with the most to lose, the
U.S., will have no choice but to save Japan from itself. Because
Japan doesn't have many other choices, it has little to lose in
following this strategy.

Of late, the Japanese have managed to threaten the U.S. without
doing so openly. On Friday, Prime Minister Obuchi said, "I have
decided that the world's second largest economy, Japan, should
not become the source of the global financial meltdown." Now,
because the legislation he was announcing would have absolutely
no impact on the course of that meltdown, what he was really
saying was, "If things go on this way, Japan will cause a global
economic meltdown. Japan is not going to do a single thing to
avert this meltdown. If you don't believe me, just look at this
legislation. So, if you don't want a global meltdown, you'd better do
something." And with that, he got on the plane to visit the U.S.

As our regular readers should be aware, we are not of the opinion
that the Asian crisis is causing a global meltdown. Russia's
problems have nothing whatever to do with Asia. Latin America's
problems are only marginally linked to Asia's, and are far less
structural. The European and American situations are quite
separate from Asia's problems. But it is in Japan's urgent interest to
convince the Western community that there is a global crisis, and
saving Japan will avert that crisis. Unfortunately for Japan, its
subtle assertion that it is more in the world's interest to save Japan
than it is in Japan's interest to save itself is not persuasive.
Normally, such an assertion would go nowhere.

The problem today is that Bill Clinton badly needs a crisis to solve.
In fact, he needs to save the world. Obuchi has tried very hard to
give Clinton the opportunity to appear to be saving the world. The
question is whether Clinton will seize the opportunity. Thus, two
political cripples are meeting this week to discuss the future of the
international financial system. Clinton set the stage for the meeting
last week, when he announced the need for a global economic
conference to solve the problems posed by the Asian meltdown.
Interestingly, Alan Greenspan tried to diffuse Clinton's initiative by
making it clear that he was not even in favor of a global interest rate
cut, let alone more concerted international action. Nevertheless,
Clinton badly needs to be seen as a decisive political leader.

Thus, the danger this week is that Clinton's political weakness will
tempt him into playing Obuchi's game. Clinton's need for a
sweeping and decisive gesture, to convince the public that he is
indispensable, will lead him to be sorely tempted by Obuchi's desire
to create an international solution to Japan's, and Asia's, economic
problems. In our view, the U.S. can no more solve Japan's
problems than it could solve Russia's. Japan's problems are deep,
structural, and of Japan's own making. The solutions must be
deep, structural, and Japan's responsibility. Moreover, it is our view
that the U.S. is far less threatened by a Japanese meltdown than
Japan would like the U.S. to believe. Internationalization will merely
further postpone Japan's day of reckoning, while actually increasing
U.S. exposure to the consequences of delay.

Whether we are correct on this point or not, the pressure on Clinton
to allow Obuchi's worldview to dominate the meeting is intense.
Whether there is a solution, and whether the U.S. should shoulder
the burden for the solution, may turn out to be less material than
Clinton's need to make it appear that he alone has the solution, and
that without that solution, and without Clinton, the world faces a
disaster.

Obuchi, in an interview with the Washington Post on Sunday,
turned up the pressure on Clinton, or gave him more ammunition,
depending on how you look at it. Obuchi said that Japan had tried
every solution and that the only remedy left might be to build up a
"wartime economy," with increased defense spending leading the
way to new jobs and industrial growth. Coming after Japan's very
public panic over North Korean missile tests, Obuchi is signaling the
U.S. that the only option under its control is the return of Japanese
militarism. If the U.S. doesn't want that, then it is up to the U.S. to
solve Japan's problems.

A strong president would refuse all assistance to Japan, at least
until the Japanese themselves show their willingness to make
painful decisions. In ordinary times, Bill Clinton could do this and still
appear decisive, taking advantage of his willingness to confront
Japan as evidence of his will. But these are not ordinary times, and
a show of will in private meetings will not affect Monday's release of
Clinton's grand jury testimony. If those tapes kick off a firestorm,
Clinton may look at his meeting with Obuchi as his last chance to
save his presidency, by appearing to save the world.

It has been said that this is a crisis of character. This week will be
the ultimate test of Clinton's character. If he can resist the
temptation to play Obuchi's game, he may finally show that he has
character. Paradoxically, that very show of character might throw
away a final chance to save his presidency.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Weekly Analysis -- September 21, 1998
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:11:20 -0700

From: Peter Wenz <Petewen@prodigy.net>

BPR wrote:
>
> From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
>
> [Moderator's note: This is a very long article, but oh so informative.
> Something to watch for this week.]
>
> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>
> Global Intelligence Update
> Red Alert
> September 21, 1998
>
> Impeachment, Japan, and a Hunger for Crisis
>

SNIP

> Therefore, Japan has decided on another strategy: Internationalize
> its banking crisis. Japan is not merely avoiding action. Whether by
> design or by accident, it is exporting its problems.
>

SNIP

> Everything that Japan has done
> has had the effect of increasing the strain on the international
> system. That appears bizarre until you think about it.

SNIP

> Japan has two goals. First, it wants to get out of this economic
> mess. Second, it wants to do so without making fundamental
> changes to its society, economy, or political system. Any solution it
> devises will require fundamental changes. If, however, Japan can
> convince others to underwrite the restoration of its financial system,
> it can save itself without fundamental change.
 
Actually, this is not that unreasonable, considering the lions share of
the current problem in Japan was NOT caused by "Japanese mismanagement",
but by non-Japanese individuals and institutions. I.E. international
speculators who literally destroy a country in order to turn a quick
profit. That is the one and only reason we have these problems to begin
with. If I was Japanese I would resent having to change MY culture and
beliefs to assuage the desires of the rest of the world now that they've
made a mess of things.

--
A quotation worth noting:
We think the price is worth it -- Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
on the deaths of A HALF A MILLION CHILDREN during our embargo of Iraq.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: 9/21/98 TV Program
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:04:49 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

8:00 PM Eastern

 A&E - BIOGRAPHY - "Satan: Prince of Darkness" - From nearly the
dawn of the universe to this very day, Satan is believed to roam the
earth, vowing to destroy man. Where there is light, Satan brings
darkness. Where there is peace, he wages war. Where he finds love,
he ushers in hate. Join us, as we tell the terrifying tale of the
evil creature that has hunted humans since the beginning of time. [TV
PG]

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: List Stuff
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:37:59 -0500

From: owner-bpr@philologos.org

Good Morning....

From time to time outgoing mail from the list is returned
undeliverable. The reason generally
is that the recipient's mailbox is full. In any case, if you feel
that you are missing messages or
just want to receive an old mail packet, you can do so by sending a
message to the list
with the following commands on the SUBJECT line.

RESEND
this command will send you a digest of messages for the last seven
days.

RESEND-XX
where XX is the number of days you want to receive.

Example: RESEND-03 would you send you mail from the last three days.

Thanks for your time....

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Moderator's Note
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:08:08 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi guys...

Bands, a fairly new member of our list, will no longer be joining us.
Any outstanding or unresolved messages or issues that you have
with him will have to be conducted in private.

I will outline my reasons for banning him from the list so that others
will see that I don't ban someone from the list lightly or just
because we may have a difference of opinion concerning the
Scriptures.

1. Bands claims to be one of the two witnesses described in
Revelation.

2. He claims to be infallible in his interpretation of the Scriptures
on matters where he has received direct "revelations" from God.
The only time he could possibly be wrong is where he has not
received any special revelation from God on a matter or if his
"humanness" got in the way of his having received the revelation.
In other words, if he misinterpreted or didn't understand what God
was "sending" him at the time. The message wasn't wrong, the
way he perceived was. He tells me that God has corrected him
on such matters. I gather from that, that currently he is not in error
on anything scriptural at the moment.

3. If we disagree with him on a matter where he has received
direct revelations (or "visions" as he calls them) then we are most
definitely in error.

4. If several people on the list express differing opinions on a
particular verse, then its obvious that all or some of us are not
using "logic" in our interpretation, since only one interpretation
can be right. Since we aren't using logic, we therefore must be
interpreting Scriptures based merely on our opinions, i.e. not on
any direct revelations or visions from God. He therefore warns that
we should be careful in such situations. He further quoted
Jeremiah 6:28 and expressed that such "talebearers" would suffer
the wrath of God.

5. He accused us (and I take that to mean Moza and myself) of
consulting astrological charts. I can not express in words the
absolute shock I felt with that accusation. I have had several hours
to reflect on that statement and I'm still confused at what prompted it.
I trust that I don't have to explain the difference between "astronomy"
and "astrology" to the list? If you have the slightest misunderstanding
or misconception of any article where we talk about the constellations,
comets, asteroids, or planets, then please talk to us about it. Astrology
is expressly forbidden by God. However, astronomy is NOT astrology.

I have emailed Bands directly about the matters that I've outlined
above. They are not just my mere impressions of him, they are his
answers to my direct questions concerning matters that he has
aluded to in his messages. In light of his personal beliefs, I feel
that his involvement or participation on the list would certainly be
detrimental to us.

I'm sorry to take up the list's time with this, but I thought it
important to explain a few things. Please feel freely to talk
to me about any questions or concerns you may have.

Thank you for your time...

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Weekend News Today Items
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:03:49 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Russian Communist Party warns military might take power
Weekend News Today Source: Yahoo!

Mon Sep 21 , 1998 -- The leader of the Russian Communist Party warned
on Monday that the military might take power if the new government
headed by Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov failed, Reuters
reported.``It is important for us to support Primakov's government,
but if it fails we cannot exclude the possibility that the next
government will very probably be made up of soldiers,'' Gennady
Zyuganov told reporters while on a visit to the Council of Europe.
``The Yeltsin era is finished. It is very important for us not to end
up with a civil war,'' he said. ``We will give our support to the
Primakov government, but if it follows old policies, we will be
against it.''

UN Official Calls For Reproductive Freedom
Weekend News Today Source: CWNews

Mon Sep 21 , 1998 -- The head of the UN Population Fund (UNFPA),
addressing the annual non-governmental organization (NGO) conference
this week, called for a new emphasis on "reproductive freedom." The
conference, which was focused on the fiftieth anniversary of the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, gathered more than 2,000
representatives from 600 NGOs. Dr. Nafis Sadik, director of the UNFPA
said that "fundamental to freedom of choice are decisions concerning
reproductive and sexual health ... A number of issues still limit
women's freedom to exercise their right to reproductive health." One
of those limiting factors has been identified as organized religion by
population control proponents in UN-connected groups. UN documents and
initiatives often use the term reproductive health as a euphemism for
birth control and abortion. Sadik also called for freedom from "sexual
and reproductive health" restrictions and said UNFPA was proud to have
supported initiatives that called for extending the "right to
reproductive health" to youth.

Sweden: Police called to protect gay Jesus exhibit
Weekend News Today Source: Yahoo!

Mon Sep 21 , 1998 -- Six uniform police and five in plain clothes were
called in Sunday to protect a photography exhibition depicting a
homosexual Jesus after a church housing the show received several bomb
threats, Reuters reported. Up to 12,000 people reportedly visited the
exhibition Saturday. The exhibition, called Ecco Homo, shows a gay
Jesus in a range of biblical scenes such as surrounded by
transvestites at the Last Supper or worshiped by a group of leather
clad musclemen.

Five airlines form global "Oneworld" alliance???
Weekend News Today Source: Excite News

Mon Sep 21 , 1998 -- American Airlines and four other top
international airlines joined forces Monday in a global alliance aimed
at boosting their share of a passenger flight market worth almost $300
billion a year, Reuters reported. They promised customers improved
service through seamless travel benefits and transferable frequent
flyer programs, and for shareholders they pledged an early favorable
impact on revenue and future savings in infrastructure investment.
British Airways Plc, American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Canadian
Airlines and Qantas announced the link up, named "oneworld," in
London. The tie-up will rival the Star Alliance set up last year by
another powerful set of airlines.

Weekend News Today
http://upway.com/cgi-bin/went

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Russian teachers paid in vodka
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:45:35 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Central Russian teachers to get paid in vodka

MOSCOW (September 22, 1998 07:25 a.m. EDT http://www.nandotimes.com)
-- Teachers in central Russia will be receiving their monthly salaries
in vodka because the government's coffers are empty, a news agency
reported Tuesday.

The 8,000 educators in the Altai republic will get 15 bottles of vodka
each while local leaders pressure the federal government to pay its
debts, the ITAR-Tass news agency said.

The federal government had promised to pay $2.5 million to the
teachers in August, but the money has not appeared, ITAR-Tass said.

About 75 percent of Altai's budget comes from the federal treasury,
which is months behind in paying workers and pensioners nationwide.

But it isn't clear if this offer is a step ahead or behind. Officials
in Altai, about 1,850 miles east of Moscow, had previously tried to
pay part of the teachers' six-month wage arrears with toilet paper and
funeral accessories. The payments were refused, ITAR-Tass said.

http://www.nandotimes.com/newsroom/ntn/world/092298/world22_2743.html

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: White Horse PS
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:35:04 -0500

From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>

Hello again,

now heres an after thought..... We do know from the bible that there is
going to be a one world government and there is going to be a spiritual side
to it also. Would this mean that two of the political groups are going to get
together and overthrow the third??? Any guesses on which two?

My thoughts are, Communism and the Roman Catholic church get together to toss
Capitalism.

God Bless All

Alan

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: One World Government
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:06:03 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Hello Alan,

> now heres an after thought..... We do know from the bible that there is
> going to be a one world government and there is going to be a spiritual side
> to it also. Would this mean that two of the political groups are going to get
> together and overthrow the third??? Any guesses on which two?
>
> My thoughts are, Communism and the Roman Catholic church get together to toss
> Capitalism.

At http://www.cuttingedge.org I've been reading of their theory of
"Thesis x Antithesis = Synthesis." The main crux of the theory is:

1. thesis = the original system dominating Europe in the late
1700's.

2. antithesis (something for thesis to "fight" against) = communism

Make 1 and 2 fight against each other so that you can manipulate the
world into thinking that #3 Synthesis is the only way to go.

"Synthesis -- is the new, hybrid system produced by constant battling
between Thesis and Anti-Thesis. Synthesis is planned to be
economically Fascist, where the Means of Production and the
Distribution of Goods are privately held, but the Government dictates
how much is produced and how many companies can produce the same type
product. Synthesis was planned to be religiously Satanic, which is the
hybrid between the Judeo-Christian Thesis and the Atheistic
Anti-Thesis. This new system, hypothetically called Synthesis, has
always had a title. It has always been known as the New World Order."

If anyone is interested in the html file I have on this, just email
me and I'll be happy to blip it over to you.

Bye,
Moza

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Discuss: Noteworthy things about Rev 6:1-8
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:28:01 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

I am going to refer you to these verses of Rev 4:1-5 and so I print
them here at the top for easy reference. I offer these thoughts for
your consideration.

Donna

-------
Rev 4:1-5
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking
with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things
which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set
in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine
stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like
unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon
the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white
raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and
voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the
throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. (KJV)
-------

There are a couple of things I want to point out to you in the Rev
6:1-8 passage that we were talking about earlier.

-------
Rev 6:1-8
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as
it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come
and see.
-------

        I kind of think this "noise of thunder" is the voice of Almighty
God; if you notice in Rev 4:1-5
John describes the "lightenings and thunderings and voices" that
proceed out of the throne. God seems to speak with a voice like a a
thundering trumpet ... trumpet and thunder.

-------
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a
bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering,
and to conquer.
-------

        We know that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light ...
the color white is the color of light ... representing innocence.

WHITE (Thayer's) 3022 leukos-
light, bright, brilliant
a) brilliant from whiteness, (dazzling) white
1) used of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the
splendor of the heavenly state
2) shining or white garments worn on festive or state occasions
3) used of white garments as the sign of innocence and purity of the
soul
b) dead white;
used of the whitening color of ripening grain

But right off the innocence is suspect because a) we are warned
elsewhere that the dragon wears lambs clothing and b) he carries a
fake bow. Notice that it is not a bow like in "bow and arrows" ...
there are no arrows. It's a bow like a "rainbow" ... a fake
rainbow. Notice in Rev 4:3 that around God's thrown there is a
rainbow. This bow that the rider on the white horse is given is
SIMPLE FABRIC. Notice that it's root word has to do with producing
fruit from seed. What fruit and what seed ? It's a fake
rainbow. You figure it out.

BOW (Strong's)
5115 toxon (tox'-on); from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as
the simplest fabric): KJV-- bow.
5088 tikto (tik'-to); a strengthened form of a primary teko
(tek'-o) (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to
produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.),
literally or figuratively: KJV-- bear, be born, bring forth, be
delivered, be in travail.

We also know that that Christ comes later and he has already
"conquered" through his death and resurrection so we can be fairly
sure this is not he. No, this is Satan out to overcome God's
people and subdue the world. His last ditch effort to declare
himself God. Christ does not tell us to be overcomers for nothing
... overcomers not OVERCOME.

CONQUER (Strong's)
3528 nikao (nik-ah'-o); from 3529; to subdue (literally or
figuratively): KJV-- conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

-------
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast
say, Come and see.
-------
        
        Come and be very surprised ! he means.

SEE (Strong's)
2396 ide (id'-eh); second person singular imperative active of
1492; used as an interjection to denote surprise; lo!: KJV--
behold, lo, see.

-------
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given
to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they
should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
-------

Let's think a minute. We are in a highly symbolic book, what does a
sword represent ? What is Christ's double-edged sword ? It's the
Word of God. Why wouldn't this "sword" also be words rather than
steel ? What is at the root of all the major battles if not
religion ? What starts all wars if not words ? Red is the color
of fire ... firey words and passion.

And what is peace ? Perhaps it represents the peace of salvation,
the way that leads to peace as in Thayer's definition. You don't
have peace unless you have salvation. If Satan obscures the way to
salvation then he's taken peace from the world.

PEACE
1515 eirene-

1) a state of national tranquillity,
exemption from the rage and havoc of war
2) peace between individuals, that is, harmony, concord
3) security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and
harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)
4) used of the Messiah's peace,
the way that leads to peace (salvation)
5) used of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its
salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and
content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is
6) the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

------
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast
say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that
sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
------

Notice the balances in the hand of the rider of the black horse.
This is a symbol of bondage and slavery. The rider of the black
horse comes to put the world back under bondage. It is not Christ's
yoke but Satan's. Come and See - look and be very surprised about
it !

Thayer's
2218 zugos-

1) a yoke
a) a yoke that is put on draught cattle
b) metaphorically, used of any burden or bondage
1) as that of slavery
2) used of troublesome laws imposed on one, especially of the Mosaic
law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as
to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a
veritable `yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to,
though easier to be kept
2) a balance, a pair of scales

------
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure
of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and
see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
------

Remembering here of course that the famine of the latter days
according to Amos 8 is for the Word of God and not for bread ... it
goes along with all I've just showed you. These horses come to put
us back under bondage, obscure the way to the salvation of Christ
and steal the Word of God from us. But they can't hurt those that
have the OIL = Holy Spirit and the WINE = real understanding of
God's Word. How do you have those ? STUDY, STUDY, STUDY, PRAY,
PRAY, PRAY ! And to the RIGHT Lord, not the fake.

------
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the
fourth beast say, Come and see.
------
        
Come and look with surprise !

------
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on
him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto
them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with
hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
(KJV)
------

Whose name is Death ? I think if you look around in scripture you
will find that Death is one of Satan's names. Who brought death on
the world through the serpent ? If you follow him, Satan will
bring upon you not only the death of the body but the second death,
death of the soul.

How did Satan get to Adam and Eve in the garden ? How did he tempt
Christ ? How does he go after any man ? WORDS. Satan's sword
is his word. And when you listen to him instead of God's Word you
will go hungry ... and receive death ... death of body and soul.

And the beasts of the earth ... remember you're still in the book of
symbology. Notice that these words also connote savage brutal men
... take it back to the root word and you get a sense of a
destructive trap being prepared.

BEASTS OF THE EARTH (Strong's and Thayer's)

2342 therion (thay-ree'-on); diminutive from the same as 2339; a
dangerous animal: KJV-- (venomous, wild) beast.

2342 therion-
1) an animal
2) a wild animal, a wild beast, a beast
3) metaphorically, a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious

2339 thera (thay'-rah); from ther (a wild animal, as game);
hunting, i.e. (figuratively) destruction:
KJV-- trap.

2339 thera-
1) a hunting of wild beasts to destroy them
2) metaphorically, used of preparing destruction for men

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Discuss: Noteworthy things about Rev 6:1-8
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:54:05 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Someone reminded me that white = light = truth. Donna

> Light also represents "truth". Don't hide
> your "light" under a bushel, Christ taught us. And, I am the "light
> of the world". It goes along with the rest of what you present to us.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Discuss: Noteworthy things about Rev 6:1-8
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:40:12 -0500

From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>

Hi Donna

I can see we have what is called a difference of opinion going here :)
That is good because we sharpen each other as we discuss the Word of God..
Iron sharpens iron.

I guess I should also explain how I read this wonderful Book. I read first for
the literal and there are tons of it. There is also the symbolic, but not
everything is symbolic. It is very hard to force it to be, also. Then there is
Spritual (food) which we all get from here. I don't know about the rest of you,
but I do believe this is probably the only book that stays current without
constant revisions.
Also, before anyone tells me I don't know everything. I already know that. :)
Funny how it seems the older I am getting the less I think I actually know.

This may get really long so if looks like that, I may cut into parts, ok?

> There are a couple of things I want to point out to you in the Rev
> 6:1-8 passage that we were talking about earlier.
>
> -------
> Rev 6:1-8
> 1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as
> it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come
> and see.
> -------
>
> I kind of think this "noise of thunder" is the voice of Almighty
> God; if you notice in Rev 4:1-5

> We totally agree here

> -------
> 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a
> bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering,
> and to conquer.
> -------
> The color well its a color, white. :) but you have two good points here. I
> don't use a Strongs I use a Thayers greek Dictionary with strongs numbers
> (sometimes they don't match but fortunately they show you where to look *G*)

When I looked up #5088 it saidto produce, to bring forth seed. prop(erly),
used of a woman giving birth. now i may be wrong here, being a male, but isn't
a woman bowed up (in travail) while giving birth?And then i looked up #5115 it
just said bow. I may be making a large assumption, but, when someone is going
out conquering and to conquer I assume it is means just what it says. But not
necessarily by war, conquering with peace.... I see no relation to the Rainbow
behind the Lords throne at all.Being the First Seal couldn't it represent the
church conquering the world as it did in the beginning?

> -------
> 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given
> to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they
> should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
> -------
>

> Yes it is a symbolic book but not always, sometimes it is Very literal. It is
> not just a sword, but a great sword. As a symbol I take that to mean,
> conquering by war.

> #3173 1) great
> 1a) of the external form or sensible appearance of things (or
> of persons); in particular, of space and its dimensions,
> -- as respects;
> mass and weight: great;
> compass and extent: large, spacious;
> measure and height: long;
> stature and age: great, old

> And what is peace ? Perhaps it represents the peace of salvation,
> the way that leads to peace as in Thayer's definition. You don't
> have peace unless you have salvation. If Satan obscures the way to
> salvation then he's taken peace from the world.
>
> PEACE
> 1515 eirene-
>
> 1) a state of national tranquillity,
> exemption from the rage and havoc of war
>

> first definition

> ------
> 5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast
> say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that
> sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
> ------
>
> Notice the balances in the hand of the rider of the black horse.
> This is a symbol of bondage and slavery. The rider of the black
>

Yes it is a symbol of bondage, but the most amazing thing, I looked up pair and
balances they are the same word. This seems to me to rule out a yoke, yokes are
single. Balances. Scales, on the other hand do come in pairs.

> Thayer's
> 2218 zugos-
>
> 1) a yoke
> a) a yoke that is put on draught cattle
> b) metaphorically, used of any burden or bondage
> 1) as that of slavery
> 2) used of troublesome laws imposed on one, especially of the Mosaic
> law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as
> to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a
> veritable `yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to,
> though easier to be kept
> 2) a balance, a pair of scales
>
> ------
> 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure
> of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and
> see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
> ------
>
> Remembering here of course that the famine of the latter days
> according to Amos 8 is for the Word of God and not for bread ... it
> goes along with all I've just showed you. These horses come to put
> us back under bondage, obscure the way to the salvation of Christ
> and steal the Word of God from us. But they can't hurt those that
> have the OIL = Holy Spirit and the WINE = real understanding of
> God's Word. How do you have those ? STUDY, STUDY, STUDY, PRAY,
> PRAY, PRAY ! And to the RIGHT Lord, not the fake.
>

Just to be honest it sounds like an old timey stock report telling what the
wheat prices are for the day...Here is what I found on oil #1637
AV -- oil (11)
     1) olive oil; used for fuel for lamps, for healing the sick, for
        anointing the head and body at feasts, mentioned among
        articles of commerce
In the Thayers, I got all the way to the end for the definition before I found
the word as it was used in Rev 6:6. I was equivalent to a vine. Don't grapes
grow for years before they actually produce any fruit? Hurting the vine would
be hurting your future income, as wood hurting the oil.

I see what you are saying about the Oil and the wine, do not offend the Holy
Spirit. It fits very nicely.
------

> 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on
> him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto
> them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with
> hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
> (KJV)
> ------
>
> Whose name is Death ? I think if you look around in scripture you
> will find that Death is one of Satan's names. Who brought death on
> the world through the serpent ? If you follow him, Satan will
> bring upon you not only the death of the body but the second death,
> death of the soul.
>

Agreed whatever that last horse does (is doing) is horrific and wide in its
scope.

I guess my main disagreement was something I saw in Zechariah

(CH1)
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among
the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses,
speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me
said unto me, I will show thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are
they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees,
and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the
earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

there are only three horses in this vision, but they do match the horses in
Revelations. They are spirits from the Lord (v10). So this leads me to believe
the horses in Revelation are spirits sent from the Lord also.

Hope i haven't angered anyone or worse.
I am just showing where I got my Revelations thoughts from.

Everyone be greatly Blessed

Alan

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Vatican to ask for forgiveness
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:58:32 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Vatican to seek forgiveness for past sins

            By Philip Pullella
            VATICAN CITY, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Vatican theologians have
finished the draft of a major document in which the Catholic Church
will officially ask forgiveness for its past errors, possibly
including the Inquisition and its treatment of Jews.
            The Vatican said on Wednesday its International Theological
Commission would meet next month to work on a document ``on the
relationship between the Church and the errors of the past.''
            The theologians will review a working draft of a document
ordered by Pope John Paul, who wants the Church of nearly one billion
members to seek forgiveness for the past as part of celebrations
marking the millennium.
            The working draft, currently 35 pages, was prepared by a
subcommittee and will be presented to the theological commission for
discussion in Rome from September 28 to October 3.
            The document, whose definitive title is not known, will be
studied by the commission and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican's
top theologian and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith.
            In the document, the Church is expected to ask forgiveness
for past errors, including contempt for Jews and heretics.
            The 2000 celebrations begin on December 24, 1999, and end on January 6, 2001. It was not clear when the document would be
issued.
            Catholics around the world are due to mark a day of
``Request for Forgiveness'' on March 8, 2000.
            In a major document last March, the Vatican apologised for
Catholics who failed to do enough to help Jews against Nazi
persecution during the Holocaust and acknowledged centuries of
Catholic preaching of contempt against Jews.
            In a trip to Germany in 1996, the Pope said not enough of
the country's Catholics stood up to Adolf Hitler.
            The Pope has said in various documents and speeches that the
Church needed to assume its responsibility for the Inquisition,
which was marked by the forced conversion of Jews and the
torture and killing of heretics.
            While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not
prevent the Church from expressing deep regret for the wrongs of
its members in some periods of its history.
            One of the first steps of his papacy, which marks it 20th
anniversary next month, was to begin the procedure that led to the
rehabilitation of Galileo, the astronomer who was persecuted by the
Church.
            The Inquisition prosecuted Galileo for his assertion that
the Earth revolved around the Sun, a teaching which ran counter to
Biblical accounts.
            The Vatican has already held a conference on the religious
roots of anti-Semitism and one on the Inquisition is planned for later
this year.
 ^REUTERS@

Infobeat News
http://www.infobeat.com

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: News: Vatican to ask for forgiveness
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:16:18 -0500 (CDT)

From: Tom Young <tayoung@cottagesoft.com>

Sounds like he and Bill Clinton are on the same team. Both cling
to a redefined "heretic", as well as admit regret,
but neither one of them repents by resigning.

On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, BPR wrote:

> From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>
>
> Vatican to seek forgiveness for past sins
>
>
> By Philip Pullella
> VATICAN CITY, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Vatican theologians have
> finished the draft of a major document in which the Catholic Church
> will officially ask forgiveness for its past errors, possibly
> including the Inquisition and its treatment of Jews.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Chip Implant
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:35:08 -0800

From: Wight <wight@alaska.net>

Here's an interesting article I found on the web. Would you let them
implant a chip in your body?
Shelley

                                  SOURCE: The BBC - Sci/Tech
                   Tuesday, August 25, 1998 Published at 10:54 GMT 11:54 UK

                                    Technology gets under the skin

                                          Copyright BBC

A silicon chip has been successfully implanted into the arm of a UK scientist.

The experiment, believed to be the first of its kind, means a computer can
keep track of the device and its carrier.

Professor Kevin Warwick: Tiny chip - enormous potential The chip has been
inserted in Professor Kevin Warwick's upper arm.

The professor, from the University of Reading, in England, is taking part
in the experiment to highlight some of the dangers of the technology.

Adpating technology

The technology itself is not new. Silicon chips are already used in many
countries to identify animals.

BBC science correspondent Sue Nelson reports on the experiment A digital
reader can pick up a unique code for the device which is placed under the skin.

The chips can be used to reunite lost pets with their owners and identify
animals which have received vaccinations for certain diseases.

                                      Professor Kevin Warwick
                                   Tiny chip - Enormous potential
                                          Copyright BBC

More sophisticated

The implant in Professor Warwick's body is more sophisticated. Sensors can
be set up to pinpoint his location and even switch on lights automatically when he enters a room
on campus.

Intelligent building can track his moves But he says the real reason for
having the chip inserted was to demonstrate the sinister side of the pushing the frontiers of technology
forward.

"There are positive sides and negative sides - postive in helping people
around big building, negative are the big big brother issues - machines or computers controlling humans,"
he said.

Professor Kevin Warwick:"It gets very frightening" He says that if their
use became widespread we would never enjoy any privacy and could be followed and identified wherever
we went.

Future possibilities

Professor Warwick's device, which will be removed after a week, carries 64
pieces of information.

Old hat - electronic tags worn on the outside But they could also be used
to carry personal information such as bank details or credit ratings.

"If we look to the future, compared with what this small chip contains now,
in five or six years time the amount of information and the amount of processing capabilites will be
enormous," Professor Warwick said.

Criminal offenders and even babies can already be tracked using electronic
tagging devices attached to their body, the next step could be to implant silicon chips instead.

Copyright BBC Homepage

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Constantine the Great/First Seal
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:22:16 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Hi guys...

Earlier I mentioned a historical perspective concerning the first
seal. I thought I would rewrite it and give credit where credit is
due.

-----------------------

Constantine the Great

Dr. Johnson explains a historical view -- a foreshadowing -- of the
First Seal by looking at the life of Constantine. This is a similar type
of foreshadowing as we would see in the life of Antiochus
Epiphanes who is a "type" of anti-Christ.

"...As I searched early Church history for a person who would fit
the model as portrayed in this First Seal, there was one who stood
out like a 'sore thumb': Constantine the Great (280 - 337 A.D.).

"Constantine attempted to 'christianize' the world. History clearly
shows that he tried to tie 'religion' to the main political system of
that day -- the Roman Empire. Till this day, he has had no equal
in this regard. I think it will be truly revealing for you to hear what
a secular historian, Michael Hart (not writing from a Biblical
perspective) had to say about Constantine:

'He was the first Christian emperor of Rome and by his adoption
of Christianity, and by his various policies encouraging its growth,
he played a major role in transforming it from a persecuted sect
into the dominant religion of Europe...'

'Constantine's father became the ruler of the western half of the
Roman Empire in about 305 and when he died, Constantine was
proclaimed emperor by his troops. However, his reign was
questioned and a series of civil wars followed and ended in 312
when Constantine defeated his remaining rival, Maxentius. But,
Constantine still only ruled the Western half of the Empire and he
then attacked and defeated Licenius and then remained sole
ruler of the Roman Empire until his death in 337 A.D.

'It is uncertain when Constantine became converted to
Christianity. The most usual story is that on the eve of the Battle
of the Melvian Bridge, Constantine saw a fiery cross in the sky,
together with the words, 'By this sign shalt thou conquer.''"

Dr. Johnson summarizes:

"Constantine the Great represented the Historical perspective,
foreshadowing the Futuristic. Another will come who will be linked
with the same organizations Constantine commenced. The
ancient Roman Empire went down in defeat but it will rise again,
the forerunner today being Europe's Common Market. Of course,
the Roman Catholic Church still exists and will likely merge with
the state. When together, the Holy Roman Empire will once
again be established."

The Two Witnesses
by Dr. Lance Johnson
http://www.comeandsee.org/WITNESSES2/witnesses2.html

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Palestinian Cabinet Reaffirms State
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:41:06 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

GAZA CITY, Sept 24 (AFP) - In the face of strong opposition
from the United States and Israel, the Palestinian cabinet
reaffirmed its attention on Thursday to declare an independent state
next May on the eve of a speech by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat
before the UN General Assembly.

"On May 4 we will announce the creation of an independent
Palestinian state including all the territories occupied by Israel,"
the Palestinian cabinet said in a statement. The announcement came
following Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's clear warning
not to use Arafat's planned address to the General Assembly on
Monday to declare his intention to proclaim a state next May, when
interim peace accords with Israel expire.

"A unilateral declaration or a call for the creation of a state
would signal the end of the peace accords," Netanyahu told Israel
radio from New York.

"I advise Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority not to go
down this path because Israel will be forced to take similar
measures," he said in a veiled threat to unilaterally annex the
majority of the West Bank which remains under full Israeli control.
US officials also joined in calling on Arafat to back off.
"We oppose a unilateral statement of that kind, just like we
have opposed many unilateral actions that both sides
have taken in recent months," US State Department spokesman James
Rubin said following talks in New York between Netanyahu and US
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

Arafat will meet with both Albright and US President Bill
Clinton in the United States next week.

eretz-yisrael@shamash.org

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:08:15 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Hello Donna,

I think we were having the physical/spiritual application of the mark
in private, so I'm just going to backtrack a little here so everyone
can understand what's being talked about.

Donna was saying that the mark will be spiritual and I think it
will be both physical and spiritual. We both agreed that some
passages in Scripture have more than just either a spiritual or
physical side to it. I believe that just about everything has both
these aspects, as we are both spirit and a body.

As far as being physically held down and implanted (or whatever), I
really don't think that can change your heart and that's what God
looks at (and I really believe you have me confused with someone
else, as I don't believe I've ever presented "the forced to receive"
aspect of this situation before, as I consider it moot).

> looking around at the clinton scandals ... did you see that the UN
> gave him a standing ovation of sympathy ? and around the world
> celebrities are calling for STARR to be stopped. ironic isn't it
> that word "starr" ... the children of God are called stars. Could
> he even be one of the 2 witnesses ? The mild man of the Law ...
> reminds me of Moses. Who says these two witnesses will be "obvious"
> to us ... who'd have thought Moses to be important when he was a
> young man in Egypt ?

I guess, I'm expecting the witnesses to identify themselves as such
and certainly not to have anything to do with that oxymoron we call
American Justice.

> you can literally see the people that have taken the "spiritual"
> mark by the way they react to current events like the clinton
> scandals. when the money "wasted" to expose evil is more important
> than ensuring moral, righteous government ... and when the
> embarrassment of an immoral man is more important than morality and
> righteous actions ... that's the mark of the beast ... it's how
> people think and what they do ... whether they've got a chip in the
> hand or forehead or not, Moza ... they've already taken that mark
> ... you can pick them out, plain as day. Money and pride of person
> have literally become their gods.

Again, I think you have me confused with someone else, as I don't
believe we even got into the specifics of this question before. But,
yes, I agree with the fact that many people don't need the physical
manifestation to be just as guilty as those who do.

As far as "The Cashless Society is Here," I'm going to look that over
more closely, but I tend to agree with your statement ealier in your
post where you talk about the military and the MARC card--I don't
think that's it either.

Bye,
Moza

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:17:22 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Oh I didn't mean that you were saying that Moza ... I was covering that
"forced compliance" in my thinking is all because people do bring it up.

I pretty much agree with what you wrote here, I think.

Sorry if I confused matters ... I was in a hurry to get to work ... I am a
little distracted because I live in Florida and there is a hurricane in
the backyard.

My apologies ! I'm not thinking well.

Donna

BPR wrote:

> From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>
>
> Hello Donna,
>
> I think we were having the physical/spiritual application of the mark
> in private, so I'm just going to backtrack a little here so everyone
> can understand what's being talked about.
>
> Donna was saying that the mark will be spiritual and I think it
> will be both physical and spiritual. We both agreed that some
> passages in Scripture have more than just either a spiritual or
> physical side to it. I believe that just about everything has both
> these aspects, as we are both spirit and a body.
>
> As far as being physically held down and implanted (or whatever), I
> really don't think that can change your heart and that's what God
> looks at (and I really believe you have me confused with someone
> else, as I don't believe I've ever presented "the forced to receive"
> aspect of this situation before, as I consider it moot).
>
> > looking around at the clinton scandals ... did you see that the UN
> > gave him a standing ovation of sympathy ? and around the world
> > celebrities are calling for STARR to be stopped. ironic isn't it
> > that word "starr" ... the children of God are called stars. Could
> > he even be one of the 2 witnesses ? The mild man of the Law ...
> > reminds me of Moses. Who says these two witnesses will be "obvious"
> > to us ... who'd have thought Moses to be important when he was a
> > young man in Egypt ?
>
> I guess, I'm expecting the witnesses to identify themselves as such
> and certainly not to have anything to do with that oxymoron we call
> American Justice.
>
> > you can literally see the people that have taken the "spiritual"
> > mark by the way they react to current events like the clinton
> > scandals. when the money "wasted" to expose evil is more important
> > than ensuring moral, righteous government ... and when the
> > embarrassment of an immoral man is more important than morality and
> > righteous actions ... that's the mark of the beast ... it's how
> > people think and what they do ... whether they've got a chip in the
> > hand or forehead or not, Moza ... they've already taken that mark
> > ... you can pick them out, plain as day. Money and pride of person
> > have literally become their gods.
>
> Again, I think you have me confused with someone else, as I don't
> believe we even got into the specifics of this question before. But,
> yes, I agree with the fact that many people don't need the physical
> manifestation to be just as guilty as those who do.
>
> As far as "The Cashless Society is Here," I'm going to look that over
> more closely, but I tend to agree with your statement ealier in your
> post where you talk about the military and the MARC card--I don't
> think that's it either.
>
> Bye,
> Moza

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:17:55 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Just my two cents about the two witnesses...
Rev 11:4 "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing
before the God of the earth."
I believe that the reference to "olive trees" would point to these men
being Hebrews.
Also, in Matthew 17 we see Moses and Elijah standing with the Lord.
During Moses ministry the plagues on Egypt occured and through the ministry
of Elijah the rain was stopped. These are precisely the same things we see
happen at the hands of the two witnesses.
Personally I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.

God bless,
CL

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:30:23 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

CL ... what about the two candlesticks ? Candlesticks seem to be
churches if we take our cue from the first few chapters of
Revelation ... perhaps the 2 churches Christ didn't have any
negatives to say about ?

It says the olive trees AND the candlesticks ... I can never get
anybody to tell me about the candlesticks ... any thoughts ?

Donna

BPR wrote:
>
> From: skip007@sprynet.com
>
> Just my two cents about the two witnesses...
> Rev 11:4 "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing
> before the God of the earth."
> I believe that the reference to "olive trees" would point to these men
> being Hebrews.
> Also, in Matthew 17 we see Moses and Elijah standing with the Lord.
> During Moses ministry the plagues on Egypt occured and through the ministry
> of Elijah the rain was stopped. These are precisely the same things we see
> happen at the hands of the two witnesses.
> Personally I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
>
> God bless,
> CL

--

----------------------------------------------:)

"A weapon is best applied in the manner for which
it was designed. So it is with the Sword of the
Spirit, the Word of God, designed to be applied in
love not brute force." (BTH 1998)

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:19:06 -0500

From: Alan <rookie@wf.net>

A very interesting article I spied a few days ago.....
I captured it from:
http://seasurf.com/~radioman/album.html
it's about 1/5 of the way down, this page takes a looooooooooooooooooooong
time to load if you go there :)

I haven't yet, searched up the chip number to see if anything popped up.

be blessed,

Alan

The Mark of the Beast ?

                 Dr. Charles Sanders is the lead project engineer for the
original bio-medical
                   chips that were implanted into people for medical reasons.
These chips
               were converted from medical technology to ID technology. During
that develop-
               mental process, Dr. Sanders was invited to sit with Henry
Kissinger, while they
                  discussed the potential identification of five billion
people on earth. In a
                  conversation with Sanders, Kissinger said, "We cannot
control unless we
                                  can identify everybody on earth."

                  There is a computer chip that is 1/4 inch long. (The size of
a grain of rice.)
              This chip, #BT952000, is called the "Emergency Intrusive
Identification Locator".
              This glass tube has 250,000 electronic components in it. It is a
super sophisticated
              multi layered micro processor which is both a transmitter and a
transponder. It can
               transmit to satellites continuously through short bursts of
ultra high frequency.

               This chip has a charging circuit and battery. The battery is
made of lithium. It is
              charged for life by the body heat fluctuations. The battery has
a thermal recharging
               circuit that utilizes fluctuations in your own body's heat. It
recharges the lithium
                                battery and it remains charged for life.

              Organizers and planners spent 1.5 million dollars of medical
research money, (tax
             payers money) to analyze the two best parts of the body in which
to implant this thing
            in order to take advantage of maximum degrees of temperature
variation. After months
                  of research and 1.5 million dollars, they determined the two
best places to
             implant it would be first, the right hand, and if you were
missing your right hand, your
                       forehead. It will be injected (like a shot) underneath
the skin.

                According to Dr. Sanders, this transponder technology will
enable the closed
                surveillance of every man, woman and child in the world. It
puts out a digitly
               created signal at specific intervals. This particular interval
is a locator signal. It
                 gives vital information on the individual as well as a
locator marker signal.

                 It has a release pattern, separate receiving antenna,
separate broadcasting
                 antenna. It has a microchip that stores nine items: name and
digital picture,
             digitized fingerprint data, physical description, your address
and previous addresses,
             family history, present occupation and income, tax information
and any money owed,
             your criminal record if any and your new social security number.
You new number will
              be 18 digits. The first five of you zip code, with the
additional four after the hyphen
              and your social security number. These 18 digits will be grouped
into three sections

              Doctor Sanders was talking to a fellow engineer of chip and
asked him what would
              happen if the chip should mal-function. The engineer responded
that it would cause
                                         a grievous sore.

               Dr. Sanders stated: "I believe this chip to be the mark of the
beast." Now Dr.
             Sanders spends his time traveling warning people about this
computer chip. His chip.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:11:10 -0800

From: Wight <wight@alaska.net>

It clearly states in Revelation that the mark of the beast is 666, not your
social security number or visa number, or anything else. I believe that
when people are marked, they will have a clear choice. While there will be
economic motivation to receive the mark, it will mostly be for political
reasons. You might be beheaded for not receiving it, but it CANNOT be
forced on you. Just my thoughts.

Shelley

>From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>
>
>Hello Donna,
>
>I think we were having the physical/spiritual application of the mark
>in private, so I'm just going to backtrack a little here so everyone
>can understand what's being talked about.
>
>Donna was saying that the mark will be spiritual and I think it
>will be both physical and spiritual. We both agreed that some
>passages in Scripture have more than just either a spiritual or
>physical side to it. I believe that just about everything has both
>these aspects, as we are both spirit and a body.
>
>As far as being physically held down and implanted (or whatever), I
>really don't think that can change your heart and that's what God
>looks at (and I really believe you have me confused with someone
>else, as I don't believe I've ever presented "the forced to receive"
>aspect of this situation before, as I consider it moot).
>
>> looking around at the clinton scandals ... did you see that the UN
>> gave him a standing ovation of sympathy ? and around the world
>> celebrities are calling for STARR to be stopped. ironic isn't it
>> that word "starr" ... the children of God are called stars. Could
>> he even be one of the 2 witnesses ? The mild man of the Law ...
>> reminds me of Moses. Who says these two witnesses will be "obvious"
>> to us ... who'd have thought Moses to be important when he was a
>> young man in Egypt ?
>
>I guess, I'm expecting the witnesses to identify themselves as such
>and certainly not to have anything to do with that oxymoron we call
>American Justice.
>
>> you can literally see the people that have taken the "spiritual"
>> mark by the way they react to current events like the clinton
>> scandals. when the money "wasted" to expose evil is more important
>> than ensuring moral, righteous government ... and when the
>> embarrassment of an immoral man is more important than morality and
>> righteous actions ... that's the mark of the beast ... it's how
>> people think and what they do ... whether they've got a chip in the
>> hand or forehead or not, Moza ... they've already taken that mark
>> ... you can pick them out, plain as day. Money and pride of person
>> have literally become their gods.
>
>Again, I think you have me confused with someone else, as I don't
>believe we even got into the specifics of this question before. But,
>yes, I agree with the fact that many people don't need the physical
>manifestation to be just as guilty as those who do.
>
>As far as "The Cashless Society is Here," I'm going to look that over
>more closely, but I tend to agree with your statement ealier in your
>post where you talk about the military and the MARC card--I don't
>think that's it either.
>
>Bye,
>Moza

--- BPR

BPR Web Site - http://philologos.org/bpr

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:57:48 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

Hello John,

> Why not something simple like a tatoo.

Webster's:
(3)tattoo: 1: to mark or color (the skin) with tattoos 2: to mark the
skin with (a tattoo)
(4)tattoo 2: an indelible mark or figure fixed upon the body by
insertion of pigment under the skin or by production of scars.

Seems to fit!

Bye,
Moza

P.S. For more info on the tattoo/scar/scab angle, see under "Leprosy"
in the Research Files area of BPR.

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:40:21 -0400

From: Jon Loose <medman@gte.net>

   Why not something simple like a tatoo. Tatoos' are subject to
detererations, or lightening, magnetic pulses, weather, or age. They would
identify and revulse Christians.

BPR wrote:

> From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>
>
> Hello Donna,
>
> I think we were having the physical/spiritual application of the mark
> in private, so I'm just going to backtrack a little here so everyone
> can understand what's being talked about.
>
> Donna was saying that the mark will be spiritual and I think it
> will be both physical and spiritual. We both agreed that some
> passages in Scripture have more than just either a spiritual or
> physical side to it. I believe that just about everything has both
> these aspects, as we are both spirit and a body.
>
> As far as being physically held down and implanted (or whatever), I
> really don't think that can change your heart and that's what God
> looks at (and I really believe you have me confused with someone
> else, as I don't believe I've ever presented "the forced to receive"
> aspect of this situation before, as I consider it moot).
>
> > looking around at the clinton scandals ... did you see that the UN
> > gave him a standing ovation of sympathy ? and around the world
> > celebrities are calling for STARR to be stopped. ironic isn't it
> > that word "starr" ... the children of God are called stars. Could
> > he even be one of the 2 witnesses ? The mild man of the Law ...
> > reminds me of Moses. Who says these two witnesses will be "obvious"
> > to us ... who'd have thought Moses to be important when he was a
> > young man in Egypt ?
>
> I guess, I'm expecting the witnesses to identify themselves as such
> and certainly not to have anything to do with that oxymoron we call
> American Justice.
>
> > you can literally see the people that have taken the "spiritual"
> > mark by the way they react to current events like the clinton
> > scandals. when the money "wasted" to expose evil is more important
> > than ensuring moral, righteous government ... and when the
> > embarrassment of an immoral man is more important than morality and
> > righteous actions ... that's the mark of the beast ... it's how
> > people think and what they do ... whether they've got a chip in the
> > hand or forehead or not, Moza ... they've already taken that mark
> > ... you can pick them out, plain as day. Money and pride of person
> > have literally become their gods.
>
> Again, I think you have me confused with someone else, as I don't
> believe we even got into the specifics of this question before. But,
> yes, I agree with the fact that many people don't need the physical
> manifestation to be just as guilty as those who do.
>
> As far as "The Cashless Society is Here," I'm going to look that over
> more closely, but I tend to agree with your statement ealier in your
> post where you talk about the military and the MARC card--I don't
> think that's it either.
>
> Bye,
> Moza

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:58:13 -0500

From: skip007@sprynet.com

Hi Donna,
Sorry about not making mention of the two candlesticks also, I think that
the candlesticks also point towards the two witnesses being Hebrews, as the
candlesticks would be placed INSIDE the temple.

Also, about the mark of the beast, I agree with Shelley that it will be
something that will be chosen by each individual and not something that can
be forced on people. If it could be forced on people then who would be
martyred?!

CL

----------
> From: BPR <bpr-list@philologos.org>
> To: BPR Mailing List <bpr-list@philologos.org>
> Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
> Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 4:30 PM
>
> From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>
>
> CL ... what about the two candlesticks ? Candlesticks seem to be
> churches if we take our cue from the first few chapters of
> Revelation ... perhaps the 2 churches Christ didn't have any
> negatives to say about ?
>
> It says the olive trees AND the candlesticks ... I can never get
> anybody to tell me about the candlesticks ... any thoughts ?
>
> Donna
>
>
>
> BPR wrote:
> >
> > From: skip007@sprynet.com
> >
> > Just my two cents about the two witnesses...
> > Rev 11:4 "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks
standing
> > before the God of the earth."
> > I believe that the reference to "olive trees" would point to these men
> > being Hebrews.
> > Also, in Matthew 17 we see Moses and Elijah standing with the Lord.
> > During Moses ministry the plagues on Egypt occured and through the
ministry
> > of Elijah the rain was stopped. These are precisely the same things we
see
> > happen at the hands of the two witnesses.
> > Personally I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
> >
> > God bless,
> > CL
>
> --
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------:)
>
> "A weapon is best applied in the manner for which
> it was designed. So it is with the Sword of the
> Spirit, the Word of God, designed to be applied in
> love not brute force." (BTH 1998)

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:44:27 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

That's okay CL.

I don't think it will be forced either because I do not think God is talking
about a physical mark. I think it is a spiritual sign or seal of ownership ...
it's an indication of who you belong to. A slaver's mark. Anyway I think it
is a spiritual thing and that all these great "marking" schemes are
razzle-dazzle to keep people from putting their focus where it needs to be ...
on where their heart is, what it is set on ... or to put it another way ...
where their treasure is laid up.

I'm always open to the possibility I might be wrong, of course, so I like to
keep up with what's going on in that area also.

Donna

BPR wrote:

> From: skip007@sprynet.com
>
> Hi Donna,
> Sorry about not making mention of the two candlesticks also, I think that
> the candlesticks also point towards the two witnesses being Hebrews, as the
> candlesticks would be placed INSIDE the temple.
>
> Also, about the mark of the beast, I agree with Shelley that it will be
> something that will be chosen by each individual and not something that can
> be forced on people. If it could be forced on people then who would be
> martyred?!
>
> CL
>
> ----------
> > From: BPR <bpr-list@philologos.org>
> > To: BPR Mailing List <bpr-list@philologos.org>
> > Subject: Re: The Mark of the Beast
> > Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 4:30 PM
> >
> > From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>
> >
> > CL ... what about the two candlesticks ? Candlesticks seem to be
> > churches if we take our cue from the first few chapters of
> > Revelation ... perhaps the 2 churches Christ didn't have any
> > negatives to say about ?
> >
> > It says the olive trees AND the candlesticks ... I can never get
> > anybody to tell me about the candlesticks ... any thoughts ?
> >
> > Donna
> >
> >
> >
> > BPR wrote:
> > >
> > > From: skip007@sprynet.com
> > >
> > > Just my two cents about the two witnesses...
> > > Rev 11:4 "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks
> standing
> > > before the God of the earth."
> > > I believe that the reference to "olive trees" would point to these men
> > > being Hebrews.
> > > Also, in Matthew 17 we see Moses and Elijah standing with the Lord.
> > > During Moses ministry the plagues on Egypt occured and through the
> ministry
> > > of Elijah the rain was stopped. These are precisely the same things we
> see
> > > happen at the hands of the two witnesses.
> > > Personally I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
> > >
> > > God bless,
> > > CL
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------:)
> >
> > "A weapon is best applied in the manner for which
> > it was designed. So it is with the Sword of the
> > Spirit, the Word of God, designed to be applied in
> > love not brute force." (BTH 1998)

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: News: THE CASHLESS SOCIETY IS HERE
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:07:26 -0500

From: "Donna J. Berkley" <donnaberkley@sprintmail.com>

Moza,

you may be right about the mark being both literal and physical ...
I have one of those Navy MARC cards but I don't believe it will ever
be used because they are shifting rapidly to other technologies.
literal or spiritual they aren't putting a chip in my flesh either,
moza ... but i suppose that if they hold you down and insert one ...
you'd have to rely on my spiritual definition wouldn't you ?

looking around at the clinton scandals ... did you see that the UN
gave him a standing ovation of sympathy ? and around the world
celebrities are calling for STARR to be stopped. ironic isn't it
that word "starr" ... the children of God are called stars. Could
he even be one of the 2 witnesses ? The mild man of the Law ...
reminds me of Moses. Who says these two witnesses will be "obvious"
to us ... who'd have thought Moses to be important when he was a
young man in Egypt ?

you can literally see the people that have taken the "spiritual"
mark by the way they react to current events like the clinton
scandals. when the money "wasted" to expose evil is more important
than ensuring moral, righteous government ... and when the
embarrassment of an immoral man is more important than morality and
righteous actions ... that's the mark of the beast ... it's how
people think and what they do ... whether they've got a chip in the
hand or forehead or not, Moza ... they've already taken that mark
... you can pick them out, plain as day. Money and pride of person
have literally become their gods.

real christians are getting scarcer and scarcer ... one day we will
wake up and find that we, who won't compromise our christian
principles to their global ideas and systems, ... we're going to be
the object of intense scrutiny and persecution. it's coming ... we
need to be ready.

the five virgins had enough oil ... that's the holy spirit. the oil
and the wine aren't to be touched by the deception ... but the wine,
the knowledge won't save us in and of itself ... it's only the
presence of the spirit of God in us that will keep us free. we'd
all better remember every minute that we cannot save ourselves ...
only God himself can save us !

donna

>
> THE CASHLESS SOCIETY IS HERE
>
> By Chris Beard
>
> After years of planning, research, and development the world's financial
> institutions are announcing the much anticipated GLOBAL CASHLESS
> SOCIETY. The ability to conduct all manner of monetary exchange is now
> being replaced by microchip technology and electronic currency.
>
> MONDEX is the company providing this cashless system and has already
> franchised over 20 major nations. This system was created in 1993 by
> London bankers Tim Jones and Graham Higgins of NATEST/COUTTS, the
> personal bank of Britain's Royal Family.
>
> The system is based on SMART CARD technology which employs microchips
> concealed in a plastic card which stores electronic cash,
> identification,and other information.
>
> All transaction systems are being made secure by adopting SET protocols
> (Secure Electronic Transaction) and will display the SET MARK.
>
> MON-DEX - A compound of the words MONETARY & DEXTER. Webster's
> Dictionary Encyclopedia Edition defines these words as:monetary -
> pertaining to money dexter - belonging to or located on the right hand;
> SET - the Egyptian god of evil or Satan.
>
> Along with the cards, you may use a PET device (Personal
> ElectronicTransfer). This wallet sized calculator-like device allows you
> to conduct personal currency exchanges with other card holders.The cards
> also works with the NORTEL/BELL VISTA 360 phone, MILLENNIUM pay phones,
> ATMs, your PC, the INTERNET, and online businesses and institutions.
>
> This cashless system has been tested extensively in the city of Guelph,
> in Ontario, Canada, and in the U.K. and U.S. All Canadian banks have
> signed up to MONDEX and will be promoting it soon.
>
> Plans are to have it in widespread use by 1998.The CIBC (Canadian
> International Bank of Commerce) has even set up a model cashless branch
> inside NORTEL in Brampton, Ontario.
>
> Over 250 corporations in 20 countries are involved in bringing MONDEX to
> the world and many nations have already been franchised to use it: the
> U.K., Canada, U.S.A., Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Hong Kong, China,
> Indonesia, Macau, Malaysia,Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, India,
> Taiwan, Sri Lanka, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Honduras,
> El Salvador and Belize.
>
> The European Union is expected to adopt the MONDEX system as their
> unified currency solution.
>
> Other SMARTCARD systems are quickly being put aside in favor of MONDEX,
> especially since MASTER CARD bought a 51% stake in the company.
>
> NATWES will still maintain directorship in it's development and
> implementation. "This isthe final stage in becoming a global reality,"
> said Robin O'Kelly of MONDEX International. "With MasterCard's backing,
> there's nothing to stop MONDEX now from becoming the global standard.
>
> Eventually the idea of carrying a card will become obsolete as people
> soon discover that it has its security limitations-namely, being
> susceptible to damage, loss and theft.
>
> The final solution will be to have the microchip simply placed inside
> the human body as they do now with microchip pet identification systems.
>
> INFOPET is one of several companies that provide a syringe gun
> implantable bio-chip that is injected under the skin of an animal. The
> chip can be read by a scanner and the code identifying the owner and pet
> will bring up a file on a computer. The system boasts that it can track
> over 1 billion pets by satellites and cellular towers.
>
> MOTOROLA, who produce the microchips for the MONDEX SMARTCARD, has
> developed several human implantable bio-chips.The BT952000 chip was
> engineered by Dr.Carl Sanders who was directed in 17 NEW WORLD ORDER
> meetings to develop the device for global use in humans for economic and
> identification purposes.
>
> The bio-chip measures 7mm long and .75mm in width, about the size of a
> grain of rice. It contains a transponder and a rechargeable lithium
> battery.
>
> The battery is charged by a thermo-couple circuit that produces voltage
> from fluctuations in body temperature. They spent over 1.5 million
> dollars studying where to place the chip in the human body.
>
> They found only two suitable and efficient places -the FOREHEAD just
> under the hairline, and the back of the hand, specifically the RIGHT
> HAND.
> "And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor,
> and the free men and the slaves, to be given mark in their right hand,
> or in their forehead, and he provides that no one should be able to buy
> or sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast,
> or the number of his name." (Revelation 13:16_)
>
> Dr. Sanders was against the use of the lithium battery because it was
> known that if it were to break the lithium would cause a GRIEVOUS BOIL
> or sore and cause much agony to the host."And the first went and poured
> out his vial upon the earth, and there fell a noisome and grievous sore
> upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which
> worshiped his image." Revelation 16:2.
>
> After Dr. Sanders left the project, he was introduced to the prophetic
> scriptures in the Bible concerning the "mark of the beast" He then
> converted to the Christian faith and now conducts seminars on this
> topic. He developed patented medical, surveillance, and security
> equipment for the FBI, CIA, IRS,IBM, GE, Honeywell, and Teledyne. He has
> also received the President's and Governor's award for design and
> excellence.
>
> Mark is charagma, which means a scratch, or etching, stamp, insignia, or
> mark of servitude.The number 666 is the Greek phrase Chi Xi Sigma,
> meaning to stick or prick, a mark incised or punched for the recognition
> of ownership.
>
> The industry name for the advanced smart card developed by GEM-PLUS and
> the U.S.DOD (Department of Defense) is the MARC (Multi-technology
> Automated Reader Card). The code name for it's development was
> 'TESSERA'. A tessera was the Roman insignia of ownership placed on their
> slaves which if removed would result in the slave being branded with a
> mark.
>
> In November 1996 an agreement was made by which GEMPLUS will supply
> smartcards for the global implementation of MONDEX. AT&T/Lucent
> Technologies purchased the franchise for MONDEX USA. Their logo is the
> symbol of the Solar Serpent or RED DRAGON who is Satan. LUCENT is
> compounded from LUCIFER - ENTERPRISES. They seem to be quite flagrant in
> naming their products STYX (a
> river in Hades), JANUS (2 faced god) and INFERNO promoted with a quote
> from "The Inferno," a story about LUCIFER in the bowels of hell. The
> "ring of fire" is the ancient Pantheon. This company deliberately chose
> to move their new offices into 666 Fifth Avenue in Manhattan.
>
> "Day was departing, and the darkening air called all earth's creatures
> to their evening quiet while I alone was preparing as though for war."
> - The Inferno,
> Dante, Canto II
>
> One of their proudest achievements is TTS (Text To Speech) in which they
> give the human-like quality of speech to lifeless technology. This only
> tends to remind one of the apocalyptic scriptures. "And it was given to
> him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the
> beast might even speak." Revelation 13:15
>
> Since it is not practical to place a microchip in every product that is
> to ever be bought and sold a UPC BARCODE does the job nicely. What most
> people don't realize is that this is the "mark of the beast" for the
> products we buy, use and dispose of everyday. Every UPC BARCODE contains
> the numbers 666. You will find one of two versions of the mark. The most
> common has 10 numbers divided into two parts. he other
> will have 6 numbers. In both versions there are 3 unidentified bars.
> Those bars are 6, 6, and 6. These are called guard bars, they tell the
> scanner when to start, divide, and stop the reading."Let him who has
> understanding calculate the number of the beast for the number is that
> of a man, and his number is 666." Revelation 13:18
>
> PROJECT LUCID
>
> This global police state apparatus was designed to monitor every man,
> woman,and child once issued a UNIVERSAL BIOMETRICS CARD just like the
> MARC or MONDEX.The system was designed by Jean?Paul Creusat, M.D. and
> UN-INEOA representative (United Nations International Narcotic
> Enforcement Officers Association).An article appeared in NARC OFFICER
> magazine, that describes the system. It appears to be closely related to
> the UN GLOBAL SECURITY PROGRAMME.
>
> Author Texe Marrs has written an entire book on PROJECT LUCID. In it he
> tells of the refusal to disclose the project's acronym leading him to
> believe LUC-ID may stand for LUCIFER's IDENTIFICATION.
>
> Many proponents of the NEW GLOBAL ORDER are occultic,Masonic, or
> antichristian and they seem to take delight with their veiled
> expressions. With LUCID the global law enforcement authority will be
> able to track your every move, transaction, and acquaintance - it's that
> intrusive.
>
> Simon Davies of PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL investigated MONDEX's anomynity
> claims and found that they were monitoring all transactions in the
> trials breaking specific trade laws. Many if not most of MONDEX's
> original 17 or so financial backers are from the London banking
> district belonging to the CLUB OF THE ISLES, a HOUSE OF WINDSOR banking
> cartel that has a major choke hold on GLOBAL
> economics. Through secretive meetings and strategic alliances these
> powerful MASONIC institutions influence world politics, finances,
> resources, and even the policies and structure of the UNITED NATIONS.
> Their goal is a NEW WORLD ORDER based on one global government, one
> global religion, and one global electronic economy.
>
> There is a MAN who is the BEAST spoken of by the prophets and the number
> of his name is 666. He is the LORD OF THE ISLES, a world figure whom
> many adore but he is also a man of intrigue and his power and influence
> have been grossly underestimated. He and his family were the first to
> publicly receive the microchipimplant/mark which was broadcast around
> the world on CNN in March of 1996. But because the
> whole world is asleep, deluded, too busy, and unaware the god of this
> world continues to work in secrecy.
>
> There are hundreds more companies and people involved with the
> implementation of the GLOBAL CASHLESS ECONOMY but presented ere are a
> few of the main players. This should give you a brief introduction to
> what the mark of the beast is and how it is being implemented. I have
> also included a few explanations of MONDEX symbolism.
>
> MONDEX's logo contains 3 inter-linked rings, a symbol only found in
> occultic MASONIC orders. It's general meaning regards three gods or the
> Egyptian/Pagan trinity especially in the Enochian Temple Magick rituals
> of the HermeticOrder of the Golden Dawn. Namely Isis, Osiris, Horus,
> but originally in the Bible Ashtoreth, Nimrod, Tammuz/Baal. The Pagan
> trinity are three gods manifested in one way whereas the Christian
> trinity is one god manifested in three ways. This symbol was also used
> by the Grand Lodge of England and the Order of Odd Fellows founded by
> NERO in A.D. 55.
>
> "Originally a symbol of imprisonment and slavery, defeat.The 'golden
> chain' (in Latin catena aurea) was thought of in antiquity as linking
> heaven and earth" [like the tower of Babel in Babylon] "This is Homer's
> 'golden chain', which God, according to the poet, ordered suspended from
> heaven to earth. In the symbolism of Freemasonry, the "fraternal chain"
> is the bond between brother Masons understood as extending across
> international borders and encircling the globe. The new initiate, when
> he "sees the light," see the brothers "standing in the chain." In this
> connection, the symbolic chain often appears in the names of lodges.The
> linked rings of the chain signify a powerful and lasting unity or that
> in war - a stronghold has been broken through. Dictionary: > of
> Symbolism - (Hans Biedermann pg.63-64)
>
> "Masonry, like all the false religions, all the Mysteries conceals its
> secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses
> false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead
> those who deserve only to be mislead. (pg 104,105) "The Blue Degrees are
> but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are
> displayed there to Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false
> interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but
> it is intended he shall imagine he understands them."(Pg 819 Albert
> Pike, 33o Mason, "Morals and Dogma")
>
> Another symbol utilized by MONDEX is the butterfly. This symbol has
> numerous mystical meanings but the most prominent is that of capturing
> the soul.The Greek word for butterfly and soul is "psyche." Can
> receiving the "mark of the beast,"a deal with the Devil, cause you to
> lose your soul? ". . . If anyone worships the beast and his image, and
> receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand he also will drink of the
> wine of the wrath of Yahweh, which is mixed in full strength in the cup
> of His anger, and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the
> presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the
> smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest
> day and night, those who worship the beast and his image,and whoever
> receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11)
>
> SO YOU DON'T WANT TO GO CASHLESS. THEN
> WHAT?
>
> First off, you will find yourself quickly becoming financially
> handicapped in your payment options. You will also pay heavy fees for
> using cheques until cheques are eliminated. You will be pressured and
> even coerced to have all your bill payments and paychecks conducted
> automatically and electronically. Home banking on your PC or phone will
> become necessary as tellers and bank branches are replaced by
> ATM's. Large sums of cash will be next to impossible to obtain. Cash
> will be recalled and the smartcard will become mandatory. You will then
> find that you cannot pay your bills or buy groceries.
>
> Exchanging gold or silver coins will be illegal without a dealer
> licence.
>
> Messiah told us to have hope and not despair because He would soon be
> coming.He told us not to be weighed down with anxieties just to wake up
> one day and be trapped by the circumstances. He told us to occupy until
> He comes. He gave us a special end times commission. "Who then is the
> faithful, thoughtful, and wise servant, whom his master has put in
> charge of his household to give o others the food and supplies at the
> proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master finds doing these
> things when he comes." Matthew 24:45-46
> MAKE THE COMMITMENT TODAY
>
> Please make the committment today that you will never go under a
> cashless debt-based system, that you will never submit to the mark of
> the beast.
>
> Already natural disasters are increasing in various places catching
> people unprepared.There may be man made crises to accelerate the need to
> unite and surrender our rights, privacy, freedoms, properties for
> so-called "peace and security." Flee,not for the sake of saving flesh
> alone, but to fulfill our livesto the fullest taking every opportunity
> to live and add to the kingdom of heaven.
> HELPLESS OR HOPEFUL
>
> You will be either helpless or hopeful. Draw the line here, do not go
> down the easy broadway that MONDEX is opening wide. Our Savior wants us
> to overcome what oppression and persecution lies ahead, so that you may
> receive a crown of great glory.
>
> The "elite" have planned for these events well in advance and they are
> carrying out their agenda now to create a NEW WORLD ORDER by A.D. 2000.
> They are currently producing one billion MONDEX chips per year and they
> already have been in production for at least one year. Chances are that
> if you are reading this, your bank has already signed on to MONDEX and
> will be promoting it shortly, no matter where in the
> world you live.
>
> They have discovered that as long as the chip is in the card, there are
> some serious problems. The chip can be hacked and information changed or
> counterfeited. The values can be altered. The card contacts wear out
> within a year. It can be broken, stolen or lost. The electronic cash is
> not insured for the customer.
>
> There is only one solution to these problems and that is to follow
> Motorola and InfoPet's lead and implant the chip into the flesh where it
> cannot be successfully circumvented. In either form, it is to the same
> ends. Card or flesh, whatever we end up is the mark of the beast. It is
> still MONDEX .and means..."money in the right hand."
>
> REALLY, I THINK THIS IS RATHER SELF-EXPLANATORY. EVEN ANY NONCHRISTIAN
> CAN BELIEVE THIS STUFF. THOSE SCRIPTURES TELLING OF ALL THIS WERE
> WRITTEN ALMOST 2000 YEARS AGO AND LOOK HOW TRUE THEY ARE.
>
> Here is one bank's promotion of MONDEX.:
> http://www.cibc.com/smartstart/teen/Mondex.html
>
> Here is an excellent site that is exposing MONDEX from another view:
>
> http://insight.mcmaster.ca/org/efc/pages/mondex/
> MONDEX INTERNATIONAL home page, read the press releases:
>
> http://www.mondex.com/index.html
> > MONDEX USA: > http://www2.mondexusa.com/ > > MONDEX Flowchart:
> http://www.fintec.com/mondex.html >
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Definitions
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:04:47 -0500

From: owner-bpr@philologos.org

Hi people...

I wonder if we could possibly do something that I think
may be beneficial. We hear the prophetic phrases
mentioned all the time, but I wonder if we know what
they really mean or include. And even if we are
individually sure, that doesn't mean that we use the
phrase the same way in our discussions with others.
For example, the phrase "Day of Wrath" may mean
something different to me than it does to you.

So, I would like for the list to focus and work together
on trying to define the various end-time terms we come
across. The definitions of course must include scriptural
support. But we'll get to that later. For now, let's just
make a list of terms that we would like to define for the
purpose of discussion. Once we get a complete list, we'll
start knocking them off one at a time. Some will be easier
than others of course, but this may turn out to be an interesting
way to study.

Feel free to add to the list:

rapture
birth-pangs
Day of the Lord
Day of Wrath
Daniel's 70 Weeks
Tribulation
Beast
False Prophet
anti-Christ
Time of Jacob's Trouble

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Definitions
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:58:42 -0800

From: Wight <wight@alaska.net>

We could add these to the list:

two witnesses
millenium
Armageddon
Babylon

>From: owner-bpr@philologos.org
>
>Hi people...
>
>I wonder if we could possibly do something that I think
>may be beneficial. We hear the prophetic phrases
>mentioned all the time, but I wonder if we know what
>they really mean or include. And even if we are
>individually sure, that doesn't mean that we use the
>phrase the same way in our discussions with others.
>For example, the phrase "Day of Wrath" may mean
>something different to me than it does to you.
>
>So, I would like for the list to focus and work together
>on trying to define the various end-time terms we come
>across. The definitions of course must include scriptural
>support. But we'll get to that later. For now, let's just
>make a list of terms that we would like to define for the
>purpose of discussion. Once we get a complete list, we'll
>start knocking them off one at a time. Some will be easier
>than others of course, but this may turn out to be an interesting
>way to study.
>
>Feel free to add to the list:
>
>rapture
>birth-pangs
>Day of the Lord
>Day of Wrath
>Daniel's 70 Weeks
>Tribulation
>Beast
>False Prophet
>anti-Christ
>Time of Jacob's Trouble

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: From Ed to List: Re: The First and Last Day of the70th Week?
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:39:19 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi,

I'd be glad to discuss this, but remember that I am seeking answers myself
and there is an unsureness in all of this. It has been said so many times
in things I've read that the feasts are God's timetable and that is why I
am looking at the feasts as the beginning and ending of Daniel's 70th week.
Remember, this is only checking out this idea by designating feasts as the
beginning and ending date of that week. I shoujld also give this reminder,
that to us, the first four feasts have been fulfilled regarding Christ, but
to the Jews they are not yet fulfilled and the antichrist will possibly
work according to Jewish tradition. That is why I consider the 70th week
starting on Passover.

As far as Passover being fulfilled, I am looking at the verses in Luke 22
where Jesus said it wasn't fulfilled. True, the SACRIFICAL part of Passover
has been fulfilled - absolutely, no question, by the Lord on Calvary - but
Jesus said (notice CAPS),

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this
passover with you before I suffer:
Luke 22:16 For I say unto you, I WILL NOT ANY MORE EAT THEREOF, UNTIL IT
BE FULFILLED IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Luke 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and
divide it among yourselves:
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine,
until the kingdom of God shall come.

Though I am a little hesitant to share SOME things I am considering because
this is only investigative, I will.

1. As I said, the sacrifical aspect of Passover WAS fulfilled by Christ at
Calvary.

2. The Feast of First fruits has been fulfilled in that Christ HAS risen
from the dead.

3. Likewise, the Feast of Unleavened bread has also been in that Christ was
sinless, being the Bread that came down from heaven to give life to the
world.

4. Pentecost, as well, has been fulfilled, as the first Adam was a living
soul, while the Last Adam has become a life-giving Spirit. The Holy Spirit
has come, sent by Jesus from the Father, just as the Law was given to Moses
when he ascended Sinai and given to Israel.

Regarding Christ, all of these have been fulfilled. But, regarding the
Church, they have not TOTALLY been. One example is what Paul said,

1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump,
as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither
with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of
sincerity and truth.

What Paul is speaking of is the reality of what the feasts foreshadowed.
Christ in His person has fulfilled these, but what of the Church? In other
words, we are to walk in that which He has fulfilled. The Church is walking
in the feast of Unleavened Bread on a daily basis, unleavened in God's
eyes, but leavened in experience. Thus, the exhortation of Paul. The same
with Passover. The Church has passed from death to life, but that life will
be manifested when Christ returns to raise from the dead those who are His.
The same with Pentecost. We have NOW the Holy Spirit within, but First
Fruits in us will be fulfilled when the Spirit in us raises us from the
dead at His coming (Pentecost - wave offering of wheat, wheat being
harvested and waved before the Lord).

Remember, this is only speculative thinking over the Scriptures. But, since
these feasts are fulfilled in Christ, when does the Church enter into the
finished reality of them? I believe during the last three feasts. In other
words, Christ fuflills these last three feasts for our benefit and the
benefit of the remnant that comes out of Judaism. And just as He fulfilled
the first four as God's time schedule, why would we possibly think He would
not fulfill the last three as God's time schedule? That is why I am looking
into this. Hope that wasn't confusing for you. It was a very quick summary
of my thinking - maybe too quick.

Here is another question I am looking at. Jesus said He would eat Passover
again in the kingdom of God (Luke 22). I believe there is some credence to
what I said above about the first four feasts being fulfilled in us by
Christ in the last three fall feasts. For instance, where does it say He
will eat Passover with us in kingdom of God? I believe He is referring here
to the wedding feast of the Lamb, in other words at the time of
Tabernacles, which is synonymos with the Millennium (Zechariah 14). In the
Passover meal, there is a fourth cup, and it is a cup of wrath, yet I have
some studies that show He did not drink of that fourth Passover cup. The
Passover being in part a remembrance of Egypt, He fulfilled the part of the
Passover meal where the Lamb was slain and the blood covered those who took
refuge in God's house (Him). But, the sword also fell in Egypt. Where do we
find that in the Passover meal? The fourth cup which has not yet been drunk
and would LEAD TO the reality of the first four feasts in us at His coming.
We have taken refuge in Him, we will be a spotless Bride, we will be raised
from the dead if not alive at His coming or changed if we are alive, we
will be changed by the Spirit in us to be like Him. In other words, "the
wrath to come" as it came in Egypt has not yet come, but it will at His
coming. This aspect of the Egyptian Passover will be fulfilled at His
coming. He will judge the world in righteousness and we will be led into
the kingdom of God, or the Millennium, or the Feast of Tabernacles,
whatever you want to call it.

Mark 11:8 And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down
branches off the trees, and strowed them in the way.
Mark 11:9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried,
saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
Mark 11:10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the
name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

These verses, on His way to Calvary soon after, are the words of
Tabernacles. There is yet a fulfilling of wrath associated with Passover
upon those who refuse to take for themselves trhe Lamb and His shed blood.
In the meantime, God has held that back because He wants no man to perish
but come to the knowledge fo the truth. Another reason He is holding it
back is because He is waiting for the proper time, and I believe that
proper time is in His feasts.

I reallyyyyyyyy hope this QUICK summary hasn't confused you, but it is only
to give you some idea of my thinking on this.

Thanks, and I would love to discuss all of this. If you'd like, I can post
soem of the research I have on the fourth cup.

Ed

At 12:43 PM 9/25/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
>
>Hi guys...
>
>> From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>
>>
>> Hi Everybody,
>>
>> I am looking for input on the first and last day of Daniel's 70th week.
>> That in turn will reveal what the day is that marks the midpoint of the
>> the week.
>
>Ed, I finally got a chance to look at the charts you mentioned. I
>wonder if we could possibly talk about this on the list for a while.
>
>In your question above, do you feel that the beginning of the 70th
>week is necessarily a feast day? We know that the signing of a
>covenant between the anti-Christ and Israel will mark the beginning,
>but you feel that particular day will be an "appointed time" so to
>speak? If so, I'm curious as to your thoughts on this.
>
>> Third, the second set of charts at
>> http://www.ncinter.net/~ejt/Private/Daniel.htm are not of my
>> making. I found them elsewhere, but I did make some alterations to
>> them, tough they were minor adjustments. These charts are based on
>> the thought that Daniel's 70th week begings on a Passover, and the
>> commentary will tell you how the other feasts possibly align with
>> that.
>
>In the daniel chart you mentioned, where the author suggested the
>beginning of the 70th week could occur on Passover, I have a
>tendency to disagree with that if only for the reason that the Festival
>of Passover (including the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened
>Bread, and the Feast of the Firstfruits) has already been fulfilled. I
>feel the Feast of Weeks has as well. So that just leaves three
>feasts as possibilities IMO: 1. Feast of Trumpets -- 2. Day of Atonement --
>3. Feast of Tabernacles.
>
>
>
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: From Ed to CL - Re: The Mark of the Beast
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:06:21 -0400

From: Ed <ejt@ncinter.net>

Hi CL,

I agree with you on this. In Daniel 12, there are two men talking to
a third and one asks the other about prophetic events. Jesus always
spoke of His fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, and Moses and Elijah
are representative of the Law and the Prophets. They appeared with Jesus
at the Mount of Transfiguration. If Revelation is the fulfillment of the
Book of Daniel, then in the scene of the "Angel" with the little book in
Revelation 10, there are no two men with Him. It is possible and even
probable that this is after the two witnesses have done their duty, then
killed and taken to heaven as the 7th trumpet is awaited. Therefore, they
would not be present. A consideration at least - I hope - <G>.

Ed

At 12:17 PM 9/25/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>From: skip007@sprynet.com
>
>
>Just my two cents about the two witnesses...
>Rev 11:4 "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing
>before the God of the earth."
>I believe that the reference to "olive trees" would point to these men
>being Hebrews.
>Also, in Matthew 17 we see Moses and Elijah standing with the Lord.
>During Moses ministry the plagues on Egypt occured and through the ministry
>of Elijah the rain was stopped. These are precisely the same things we see
>happen at the hands of the two witnesses.
>Personally I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
>
>God bless,
>CL
>
>
>

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: 70th Week/Fulfilment
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:57:48 +0000

From: "Moza" <moza@butterfly.mv.com>

 
> As far as Passover being fulfilled, I am looking at the verses in Luke 22
> where Jesus said it wasn't fulfilled. True, the SACRIFICAL part of Passover
> has been fulfilled - absolutely, no question, by the Lord on Calvary - but
> Jesus said (notice CAPS),
>
> Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat
> this passover with you before I suffer:
> Luke 22:16 For I say unto you, I WILL NOT ANY MORE EAT THEREOF, UNTIL IT BE FULFILLED IN THE
> KINGDOM OF GOD.
> Luke 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and
> said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
> Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom
> of God shall come.

I've read that it's not true that history repeats itself, but that as
it unfolds it fulfills what it hinted at in the beginning. When I
read this I think of the analogy of birth woven throughout
Scripture--yup you know at the beginning that you're pregnant but
you're not delivered until your time is fulfilled. The fulfilment is
the same as what you started out with, but it's a whole different
animal (<--if you get my drift).

If we take this thought and apply it to the feast days what do we
get? Oh my, I haven't gotten that far yet.

Bye,
Moza

========
To: bpr-list@philologos.org (BPR Mailing List)
Subject: News: Unkown force pulls three spacecraft
From: bpr-list@philologos.org(BPR)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:08:43 -0500

From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>

Unkown force pulls three spacecraft

Weekend News Today
Source: Washington Times

Fri Sep 25 , 1998 -- An unkown force pulled three spacecraft
traveling on the fringes of the solar system slightly off course, the
Los Alamos National Laboratory said yesterday. So far the
scientists at the New Mexico center know that three space
probes, Pioneer-10 Pioneer-12 and the European spacecraft
Ulysses went off course and headed sunward. A team led by
John Anderson, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., tried to track the force, which was 10 billion
times weaker that earth's gravity.